Whatever happened to fascism?
November 22, 2024 6:38 AM Subscribe
'I still believe the puzzle of U.S. (non-state) political violence, particularly far-right political violence, is not “why is there so much,” but why, given our relative legal leniency towards violent speech, freedom of association for radicals, the widespread availability of firearms, and a long, violent history of rightist street action against racial minorities and leftists, is there still so little.' In Will the Streets Run Red?, Dan Trombly examines the tensions between Trumpism and a more traditionally violent fascism.
…. Do those Western right-wing morons understand that symbols are only worth something when they are washed in blood? Hardly, because they are not ready to shed their own.
This quote sums it up. People who are fascist-adjacent are far too comfortable. If there were a global economic crash that created more people with nothing to lose then maybe.
posted by pepcorn at 7:23 AM on November 22 [10 favorites]
This quote sums it up. People who are fascist-adjacent are far too comfortable. If there were a global economic crash that created more people with nothing to lose then maybe.
posted by pepcorn at 7:23 AM on November 22 [10 favorites]
Hardly, because they are not ready to shed their own.
Partly because the same people onside with brownshirts in matching Geek Squad attire think big cities are scary crime-ridden hellholes where *they* will get shot for their New Balance 624s. Nobody said that numeracy was their strong suit.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:52 AM on November 22
Partly because the same people onside with brownshirts in matching Geek Squad attire think big cities are scary crime-ridden hellholes where *they* will get shot for their New Balance 624s. Nobody said that numeracy was their strong suit.
posted by Inspector.Gadget at 7:52 AM on November 22
There won't be a red hatted goon squad committing mass violence for the most part. They're too chickenshit, too comfy, and too content to leave it to others. No, what we have to worry about is state violence. Most law enforcement has been squarely in the MAGA camp for the last eight years and they're the ones we have to be worried about. Make no mistake, the police are going to clamp down on political protest of all forms and I would not be surprised in the next year or two if there's an incident of state and police violence against the populace that makes Kent State on May 4th, 1970 look calm and restrained in retrospect.
posted by SansPoint at 8:05 AM on November 22 [33 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 8:05 AM on November 22 [33 favorites]
The fact that the would-be goons are too comfortable pretty much debunks the whole "the us economy is terrible" argument. Vibecession, baby.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:08 AM on November 22 [9 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:08 AM on November 22 [9 favorites]
The fact that the would-be goons are too comfortable pretty much debunks the whole "the us economy is terrible" argument.
In the US, there doesn't need to be a significant venn diagram overlap for populations with the characteristics "my life is shit because of decreasing standard of living due to late stage capitalism - I'm voting for the simplistic answers/anyone-but-the-people-in-power/my prejudices" and "I'm one step away from fascist violence".
It's a big country, it contains multitudes!
posted by lalochezia at 8:12 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
A ctrl-F for "police" and "border patrol" comes up empty.
Ask yourself, what happened after the George Floyd protests? Did we defund the police? Did we institute new civilian oversight that had teeth? How many bad apples have been fired? Or did we, in fact, successfully gas and beat protesters into submission and then increase police budgets? Oh, but this doesn't come from the Fashy region of 1930s Berlin so it is mere sparkling authoritarianism...
He does talk about this though, but I have an answer for that too:
This may simply sound like a plea to understand the trivial distinction between getting beaten up by a bunch of reactionary goons versus [...] a disciplined squad of stormtroopers in a dysfunctional democracy [...]. [...] I still believe the puzzle of U.S. (non-state) political violence [...] is there still so little.
Buddy, it's because there doesn't have to be right now. Even Hitler disbanded the brownshirts when he no longer needed them because he had professional, state-funded violent thugs.
(Also, without going into it, given how much of the kind of fascist organizing Trombly is talking about that I'm personally aware of in my hometown that goes completely unreported by the press, I can assure you it's there. It's not romantic or dramatic like in the movies, but it's there.)
posted by AlSweigart at 8:16 AM on November 22 [15 favorites]
Ask yourself, what happened after the George Floyd protests? Did we defund the police? Did we institute new civilian oversight that had teeth? How many bad apples have been fired? Or did we, in fact, successfully gas and beat protesters into submission and then increase police budgets? Oh, but this doesn't come from the Fashy region of 1930s Berlin so it is mere sparkling authoritarianism...
He does talk about this though, but I have an answer for that too:
This may simply sound like a plea to understand the trivial distinction between getting beaten up by a bunch of reactionary goons versus [...] a disciplined squad of stormtroopers in a dysfunctional democracy [...]. [...] I still believe the puzzle of U.S. (non-state) political violence [...] is there still so little.
Buddy, it's because there doesn't have to be right now. Even Hitler disbanded the brownshirts when he no longer needed them because he had professional, state-funded violent thugs.
(Also, without going into it, given how much of the kind of fascist organizing Trombly is talking about that I'm personally aware of in my hometown that goes completely unreported by the press, I can assure you it's there. It's not romantic or dramatic like in the movies, but it's there.)
posted by AlSweigart at 8:16 AM on November 22 [15 favorites]
People just don't want to hear it. It's always "Trump won't get the nomination" and "Trump won't win the election" and "They won't overturn Roe v Wade" and "They won't put people into concentration camps" and "Trump won't get re-elected."
Pundits and columnists keep writing about how Trump and "demographic change" might forever end the Republican Party, and then when I say, "It's more likely that the democratic Party is the one that falls and turns the United States into a de facto one-party state for the next several decades"...
Well, people want hear "WELL ACTUALLY, there's very little fascism..."
posted by AlSweigart at 8:23 AM on November 22 [22 favorites]
Pundits and columnists keep writing about how Trump and "demographic change" might forever end the Republican Party, and then when I say, "It's more likely that the democratic Party is the one that falls and turns the United States into a de facto one-party state for the next several decades"...
Well, people want hear "WELL ACTUALLY, there's very little fascism..."
posted by AlSweigart at 8:23 AM on November 22 [22 favorites]
I haven’t finished it yet but I want to know where the fuck is magas Hugo Boss?
You might as well ask why Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk don't wear top hats and monocles like Mr. Monopoly. Times change. I never felt so old as when I saw fascist youths are really into putting anime decals on their guns and Dodge Chargers.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:31 AM on November 22 [6 favorites]
You might as well ask why Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk don't wear top hats and monocles like Mr. Monopoly. Times change. I never felt so old as when I saw fascist youths are really into putting anime decals on their guns and Dodge Chargers.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:31 AM on November 22 [6 favorites]
Partly because the same people onside with brownshirts in matching Geek Squad attire think big cities are scary crime-ridden hellholes where *they* will get shot for their New Balance 624s.
I’ve long thought the difficulty of finding pre-shooting parking was underrated as a defense mechanism for cities against suburban Nazis.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:39 AM on November 22 [14 favorites]
I’ve long thought the difficulty of finding pre-shooting parking was underrated as a defense mechanism for cities against suburban Nazis.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:39 AM on November 22 [14 favorites]
The fact that the would-be goons are too comfortable pretty much debunks the whole "the us economy is terrible" argument. Vibecession, baby.
The economy is actually pretty bad and denying it is foolish. Talk about going on vibes only.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:46 AM on November 22 [11 favorites]
The economy is actually pretty bad and denying it is foolish. Talk about going on vibes only.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:46 AM on November 22 [11 favorites]
A ctrl-F for "police" and "border patrol" comes up empty.
The “Years of Lead” across Europe saw many state security services and political elites make sordid arrangements with ultra-militant groupuscules. These activities were certainly indicators of danger and sometimes crisis, but fared poorly for the strength of neo-fascist movements, who remained in the dissident fringes while far-right populists increasingly focused on successful electoral programs of coalition-building.posted by Apocryphon at 8:48 AM on November 22
I think people who say the economy is good are looking at stats like GDP growth that don't reflect real people's lives, because all that GDP growth is going to the people at the top. The notion that a plutocrat like Trump would fix this situation is ridiculous, though.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:51 AM on November 22 [19 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:51 AM on November 22 [19 favorites]
Buddy, it's because there doesn't have to be right now.
A ctrl-F for "police" and "border patrol" comes up empty.
Dan's a PhD candidate writing on this topic, so I guarantee you he has put a lot of thought into this. That's, frankly, an insufficient answer. He's talking about nonstate actors, the police and border patrol are state actors. He's trying to answer why there is little violence by nonstate actors. The answer can't be "there's little violence by nonstate actors because theres violence by state actors" without a further elaboration as to how state violence crowds out nonstate violence, especially because that's a pretty rare phenomenon.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:54 AM on November 22 [5 favorites]
A ctrl-F for "police" and "border patrol" comes up empty.
Dan's a PhD candidate writing on this topic, so I guarantee you he has put a lot of thought into this. That's, frankly, an insufficient answer. He's talking about nonstate actors, the police and border patrol are state actors. He's trying to answer why there is little violence by nonstate actors. The answer can't be "there's little violence by nonstate actors because theres violence by state actors" without a further elaboration as to how state violence crowds out nonstate violence, especially because that's a pretty rare phenomenon.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:54 AM on November 22 [5 favorites]
it feels likely to me that a delegation from the proud boys will be invited to the white house in 2025. 😑 TFG is going to do all the shit he was unable to do last time. i don't think the plan going in is for proper fascism per se, but if it turns out that helps accomplish those goals, then that's what we're gonna get.
posted by rude.boy at 8:56 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
posted by rude.boy at 8:56 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
I'm gonna keep beating my "Please look at Hungary" drum here.
To pick one example, 21st century fascism isn't thugs yanking your trans friends out of their homes and into the street. It's your trans friends showing up to renew their driver's license and finding out that the new ones don't say sex or gender, they simply show "sex at birth" and it has been pre-filled. It's not transition being made illegal, it's governmental interference into production and distribution of hormone treatments so that it becomes harder and harder to ever get started. It's not the government eliminating the process of legally noting a gender change. It's six years going by since anyone has seen an application even processed. It's your friend's memoir about their transition being flagged as "grooming" and banned from stores. All of these are things that have happened/are happening in Hungary.
21st century fascism is not a truck barreling down a hill. It's a paving roller moving very slowly but leaving something more or less permanent behind it.
if you're preparing to defend yourself against violent militias, I do not know that that day is coming.
What is coming is the government being turned into a monolithic machine of conservative shittiness that grinds away and never loses ground.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:04 AM on November 22 [71 favorites]
To pick one example, 21st century fascism isn't thugs yanking your trans friends out of their homes and into the street. It's your trans friends showing up to renew their driver's license and finding out that the new ones don't say sex or gender, they simply show "sex at birth" and it has been pre-filled. It's not transition being made illegal, it's governmental interference into production and distribution of hormone treatments so that it becomes harder and harder to ever get started. It's not the government eliminating the process of legally noting a gender change. It's six years going by since anyone has seen an application even processed. It's your friend's memoir about their transition being flagged as "grooming" and banned from stores. All of these are things that have happened/are happening in Hungary.
21st century fascism is not a truck barreling down a hill. It's a paving roller moving very slowly but leaving something more or less permanent behind it.
if you're preparing to defend yourself against violent militias, I do not know that that day is coming.
What is coming is the government being turned into a monolithic machine of conservative shittiness that grinds away and never loses ground.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:04 AM on November 22 [71 favorites]
The fact that the would-be goons are too comfortable pretty much debunks the whole "the us economy is terrible" argument. Vibecession, baby.
grumpybear69
A lot of people are really struggling with not-imaginary high costs of things like food and rent. Sneering at these legitimate concerns is a big part of why Trump won. It was really bizarre seeing Dems take this "you don't understand, morons, the economy is great" approach.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:05 AM on November 22 [17 favorites]
grumpybear69
A lot of people are really struggling with not-imaginary high costs of things like food and rent. Sneering at these legitimate concerns is a big part of why Trump won. It was really bizarre seeing Dems take this "you don't understand, morons, the economy is great" approach.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:05 AM on November 22 [17 favorites]
To pick one example, 21st century fascism isn't thugs yanking your trans friends out of their homes and into the street. It's your trans friends showing up to renew their driver's license and finding out that the new ones don't say sex or gender, they simply show "sex at birth" and it has been pre-filled. It's not transition being made illegal, it's governmental interference into production and distribution of hormone treatments so that it becomes harder and harder to ever get started. It's not the government eliminating the process of legally noting a gender change. It's six years going by since anyone has seen an application even processed. All of these are things that have happened/are happening in Hungary.
21st century fascism is not a truck barreling down a hill. It's a paving roller moving very slowly but leaving something more or less permanent behind it.
Some would say that this isn't fascism at all!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:08 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
21st century fascism is not a truck barreling down a hill. It's a paving roller moving very slowly but leaving something more or less permanent behind it.
Some would say that this isn't fascism at all!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:08 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
Some would say that this isn't fascism at all!
It's like Ian Kershaw said, "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall."
There's definite violence in the Hungarian model, but that's secondary. It's dominated by a death by a thousand cuts type of oppression, modelled closely after the way Communist nations operated in Eastern Europe in the last century.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:12 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
It's like Ian Kershaw said, "trying to define 'fascism' is like trying to nail jelly to the wall."
There's definite violence in the Hungarian model, but that's secondary. It's dominated by a death by a thousand cuts type of oppression, modelled closely after the way Communist nations operated in Eastern Europe in the last century.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:12 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
The fact that the would-be goons are too comfortable pretty much debunks the whole "the us economy is terrible" argument.
The survey at my school says a metric fuckton of students have eaten less food because they couldn’t afford to eat a great deal of times throughout the school year, so maybe we could stop banging this drum? Every time you do another person stops voting democrat.
posted by corb at 9:13 AM on November 22 [17 favorites]
The survey at my school says a metric fuckton of students have eaten less food because they couldn’t afford to eat a great deal of times throughout the school year, so maybe we could stop banging this drum? Every time you do another person stops voting democrat.
posted by corb at 9:13 AM on November 22 [17 favorites]
corb, apart from the price of eggs at the height the flu-related culls last year, the complaints I get to hear about the economy involve the rising price of getting goods and services involving large amounts blue collar and service sector input (i.e. restaurant meals, especially if delivered).
And those have gone up in price because of wage hikes for those service sector workers. Something is just not adding up.
posted by ocschwar at 9:22 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
And those have gone up in price because of wage hikes for those service sector workers. Something is just not adding up.
posted by ocschwar at 9:22 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
Seriously. Most of this country doesn't have a savings account much less a stock portfolio. They do not give a single solitary flying purple fuck about the stock market. I don't care how much you made on bitcoin. When even people who are employed cannot pay their rent, the economy sucks.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:23 AM on November 22 [16 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:23 AM on November 22 [16 favorites]
This has been building slowly, but surely, since the earliest days of the Cold War. Fear of Communism drove those who fought Fascists in WWII to completely forget what had happened less than a decade prior. Eisenhower was the last of the Republicans to not fully embrace fascism. Sure, we had a couple of periods where democrats were in power but Nixon, Ford, Reagan, Bush(both of them), and now Trump have just pushed the country further and further to the right. It's going to take something significant to change things given how firmly entrenched this has become.
posted by tommasz at 9:25 AM on November 22 [5 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 9:25 AM on November 22 [5 favorites]
And those have gone up in price because of wage hikes for those service sector workers. Something is just not adding up.
(Does schoolhouse rocks have a song about rent seeking?)
Yeah, wages went up in a handful of places for those service sector workers, because a merest handful of locations raised their minimum wages. Which led to 1. a lot of those workers being fired and 2. a lot of those workers getting their hours cut.
Plus, those minimum wages are still about 1/3 of what they would be if they were tracking inflation. They aren't enough! The minimum wage is still not enough to pay for a one-bedroom apartment in any major city in the entire United States, friend!
I repeat: the economy sucks.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:28 AM on November 22 [13 favorites]
(Does schoolhouse rocks have a song about rent seeking?)
Yeah, wages went up in a handful of places for those service sector workers, because a merest handful of locations raised their minimum wages. Which led to 1. a lot of those workers being fired and 2. a lot of those workers getting their hours cut.
Plus, those minimum wages are still about 1/3 of what they would be if they were tracking inflation. They aren't enough! The minimum wage is still not enough to pay for a one-bedroom apartment in any major city in the entire United States, friend!
I repeat: the economy sucks.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 9:28 AM on November 22 [13 favorites]
The complaints I hear are about how it's impossible to find a job, and that most of the job postings aren't even real. Meanwhile, companies are laying off workers just for the sake of manipulating investor hype.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:28 AM on November 22 [9 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 9:28 AM on November 22 [9 favorites]
The first person to post a FRED graph in this thread gets banned.
But I think the fact that nobody can agree on whether the economy is good or bad, points to the trouble we have linking the economy to the current right movement. We don't have a big, obvious depression or period of hyperinflation to point to. Many of the J6 protestors were pretty well off, flying in to join the party. The essay points to "relatively older men with families, truck payments, and decent jobs; the kind of people you would expect to react to a defeat in the streets and government repression by spending more time harassing people at school board meetings, rather than uncompromising radicals willing to give their lives for a doomed cause".
But this is the nature of Trump's coalition. It's broad, but it doesn't fit together well, and its members have conflicting and contradictory goals. That lack of unity points to why, while Trump may not need an army of street fighters, the potential fighters suffer from not being able to budge him, either. His transactional nature means they don't have anything to offer him to get his attention.
posted by mittens at 9:29 AM on November 22 [15 favorites]
But I think the fact that nobody can agree on whether the economy is good or bad, points to the trouble we have linking the economy to the current right movement. We don't have a big, obvious depression or period of hyperinflation to point to. Many of the J6 protestors were pretty well off, flying in to join the party. The essay points to "relatively older men with families, truck payments, and decent jobs; the kind of people you would expect to react to a defeat in the streets and government repression by spending more time harassing people at school board meetings, rather than uncompromising radicals willing to give their lives for a doomed cause".
But this is the nature of Trump's coalition. It's broad, but it doesn't fit together well, and its members have conflicting and contradictory goals. That lack of unity points to why, while Trump may not need an army of street fighters, the potential fighters suffer from not being able to budge him, either. His transactional nature means they don't have anything to offer him to get his attention.
posted by mittens at 9:29 AM on November 22 [15 favorites]
Meanwhile, companies are laying off workers just for the sake of manipulating investor hype.
(waves)
Laid off in June to appease investors, rehired by the same company in September when the company decided a hiring push would make them more attractive to buyers.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:31 AM on November 22 [11 favorites]
(waves)
Laid off in June to appease investors, rehired by the same company in September when the company decided a hiring push would make them more attractive to buyers.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:31 AM on November 22 [11 favorites]
The survey at my school says a metric fuckton of students have eaten less food because they couldn’t afford to eat a great deal of times throughout the school year, so maybe we could stop banging this drum?
There has always been food insecurity, but to corb's point, it is more rampant than ever for kids, even kids you wouldn't think would be food insecure. (Stigma and all that.)
Pardon me for a minute, but I am a trustee for the Kingston chapter of the Awesome Foundation. Generally, our no strings attached $1000 "grant" is meant for community initiatives to make the city better, cooler, greater. It used to be that most of the grant pitches were for arty stuff, weird fun community stuff, but looking back at the pitches for the past year alone: a startling amount have been for food pantries, shoes and coats for low income kids, etc.
It goes without saying: children should not be going to school with empty stomachs. They should not be going to school with good shoes and winter coats. And the fact that teachers are coming to us for this meager amount of money to help their students speaks motherfucking volumes about how much of a shit our current Conservative provincial government isn't giving about those truly in need.
The current price of food is a HUGE problem. And when you haven't eaten because you can't afford to, well, that does present a very real very now problem for Americans.
posted by Kitteh at 9:32 AM on November 22 [12 favorites]
There has always been food insecurity, but to corb's point, it is more rampant than ever for kids, even kids you wouldn't think would be food insecure. (Stigma and all that.)
Pardon me for a minute, but I am a trustee for the Kingston chapter of the Awesome Foundation. Generally, our no strings attached $1000 "grant" is meant for community initiatives to make the city better, cooler, greater. It used to be that most of the grant pitches were for arty stuff, weird fun community stuff, but looking back at the pitches for the past year alone: a startling amount have been for food pantries, shoes and coats for low income kids, etc.
It goes without saying: children should not be going to school with empty stomachs. They should not be going to school with good shoes and winter coats. And the fact that teachers are coming to us for this meager amount of money to help their students speaks motherfucking volumes about how much of a shit our current Conservative provincial government isn't giving about those truly in need.
The current price of food is a HUGE problem. And when you haven't eaten because you can't afford to, well, that does present a very real very now problem for Americans.
posted by Kitteh at 9:32 AM on November 22 [12 favorites]
I continue to be baffled by the combination of greed, stupidity and hatred running rampant in a large portion of the country. There are some great books about when a disaster happens, people (regular people) come together. Why not a slow moving disaster?
Yea I've heard all the rational reasons, but what I want (need) to know is why, deep down in their guts, do so many of us (Americans) hate so many others? To the extent that they are willing to sign over everything of value to 20 vile oligarchs. Why are so many people so willing to bend the knee?
The upcoming regime got freaking voted into power with only the promise of harming as many of the 'undeserving' as possible, and not even a single nominal notion of making peoples lives better.
I always though the phrase "fuck you I got mine" was spot on, but I think it needs an update "fuck you, I got mine, now I want yours, mostly to give to those with the most".
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:50 AM on November 22 [7 favorites]
Yea I've heard all the rational reasons, but what I want (need) to know is why, deep down in their guts, do so many of us (Americans) hate so many others? To the extent that they are willing to sign over everything of value to 20 vile oligarchs. Why are so many people so willing to bend the knee?
The upcoming regime got freaking voted into power with only the promise of harming as many of the 'undeserving' as possible, and not even a single nominal notion of making peoples lives better.
I always though the phrase "fuck you I got mine" was spot on, but I think it needs an update "fuck you, I got mine, now I want yours, mostly to give to those with the most".
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:50 AM on November 22 [7 favorites]
When was the last time the economy was good, and what was the metric that proved it?
posted by Selena777 at 9:57 AM on November 22 [7 favorites]
posted by Selena777 at 9:57 AM on November 22 [7 favorites]
I've been thinking a lot lately about fascism, both as a historical phenomenon and as a political structure that can and does exist today.
While I am aware of the history of self-described fascist regimes, I tend to think of fascism today as a particular kind of comprehensive one-party, strongman-led authoritarianism, one that swallows up the entire machinery of the government to serve the ends of racist/nationalist in-groups while attempting to grind dissenters and out-groups into dust. The problem with my personal definition is that it would include considering 20th century communist Hungary a fascist state, as well as even Ceauşescu's Romania. This, despite fascists having literally fought communists.
Still, I feel this way because in my definition, the heart of fascism is the corruption of the government into a nationalist grudge machine that only really serves the interests of those at the top and leverages grievance and racism to win the loyalty of its less-advantaged adherents. So for me, you can have a nominally Communist state that is functionally fascist. You can have a nominally democratic republic whose bureaucratic structure closely mimics Communist-era Hungary, as 21st century Hungary largely does today.
This is kind of a loose definition and maybe some people would rather stick with simply saying "authoritarianism." I get that. After all, the Communist government in Romania displaced a fascist one.
Under that definition, I guess my argument boils down to: we aren't in the technical historical sense, becoming a fascist state, just a viciously, intractably authoritarian one. You know... the kind of thing that makes people shout "Fascist!"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:00 AM on November 22 [6 favorites]
While I am aware of the history of self-described fascist regimes, I tend to think of fascism today as a particular kind of comprehensive one-party, strongman-led authoritarianism, one that swallows up the entire machinery of the government to serve the ends of racist/nationalist in-groups while attempting to grind dissenters and out-groups into dust. The problem with my personal definition is that it would include considering 20th century communist Hungary a fascist state, as well as even Ceauşescu's Romania. This, despite fascists having literally fought communists.
Still, I feel this way because in my definition, the heart of fascism is the corruption of the government into a nationalist grudge machine that only really serves the interests of those at the top and leverages grievance and racism to win the loyalty of its less-advantaged adherents. So for me, you can have a nominally Communist state that is functionally fascist. You can have a nominally democratic republic whose bureaucratic structure closely mimics Communist-era Hungary, as 21st century Hungary largely does today.
This is kind of a loose definition and maybe some people would rather stick with simply saying "authoritarianism." I get that. After all, the Communist government in Romania displaced a fascist one.
Under that definition, I guess my argument boils down to: we aren't in the technical historical sense, becoming a fascist state, just a viciously, intractably authoritarian one. You know... the kind of thing that makes people shout "Fascist!"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:00 AM on November 22 [6 favorites]
I haven’t finished it yet but I want to know where the fuck is magas Hugo Boss? The ascetics fucking suck ass.
Unironically, his name is Patrick Gordon Macdonald and he's currently on trial up in Canada. There's a good summary of why he matters here (content warning: propaganda images). In short, he's the guy who defined and polished that glitchy black, white, and red aesthetic used by accelerationists.
Also, while fashwave as a mutation of vaporwave doesn't have a clear originator, Stormfront owner Andrew Anglin is the guy who declared synthwave as the "truest sound of the Alt-Right." I don't like either of these aesthetics but I recognize that they work for the target audience.
posted by Bryant at 10:01 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
Unironically, his name is Patrick Gordon Macdonald and he's currently on trial up in Canada. There's a good summary of why he matters here (content warning: propaganda images). In short, he's the guy who defined and polished that glitchy black, white, and red aesthetic used by accelerationists.
Also, while fashwave as a mutation of vaporwave doesn't have a clear originator, Stormfront owner Andrew Anglin is the guy who declared synthwave as the "truest sound of the Alt-Right." I don't like either of these aesthetics but I recognize that they work for the target audience.
posted by Bryant at 10:01 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
Yeah I have no interest in pedantic debates about whether it's only fascism if it exactly mirrors interwar Europe, but I found this an excellent and informative analysis of the informal militant US right's power and limitations right now. I don't think it can predict the future though.
posted by latkes at 10:11 AM on November 22 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 10:11 AM on November 22 [2 favorites]
DirtyOldTown I would like to put a minus sign (instead of a plus) next to your comment - that fucking sucks. So sorry.
posted by latkes at 10:12 AM on November 22 [2 favorites]
posted by latkes at 10:12 AM on November 22 [2 favorites]
To pick one example, 21st century fascism isn't thugs yanking your trans friends out of their homes and into the street.
It very much is.
It's not the government eliminating the process of legally noting a gender change. It's six years going by since anyone has seen an application even processed.
It is very much illegal/not legally possible to change your official gender designation in four states currently with new legislation rolling in several others. It is also defacto not legally possible to change your gender in several nominally legal to change states because they require surgery and/or court orders. What kind of surgery do you get if you don't identify as male or female?
But of course Classic Fascism also incorporated government and private actions.
The fact that the would-be goons are too comfortable pretty much debunks the whole "the us economy is terrible" argument. Vibecession, baby.
One can be both comfortable and have seen ones quality of life/economic situation and outlook decline.
posted by Mitheral at 10:14 AM on November 22 [9 favorites]
It very much is.
It's not the government eliminating the process of legally noting a gender change. It's six years going by since anyone has seen an application even processed.
It is very much illegal/not legally possible to change your official gender designation in four states currently with new legislation rolling in several others. It is also defacto not legally possible to change your gender in several nominally legal to change states because they require surgery and/or court orders. What kind of surgery do you get if you don't identify as male or female?
But of course Classic Fascism also incorporated government and private actions.
The fact that the would-be goons are too comfortable pretty much debunks the whole "the us economy is terrible" argument. Vibecession, baby.
One can be both comfortable and have seen ones quality of life/economic situation and outlook decline.
posted by Mitheral at 10:14 AM on November 22 [9 favorites]
Where we heading is not Hitler’s Germany. It’s Putin’s Russia.
posted by spudsilo at 10:15 AM on November 22 [21 favorites]
posted by spudsilo at 10:15 AM on November 22 [21 favorites]
If you need an easy way to distinguish fascism from communism, it's the belief in internationalism. Communist regimes advocated an international movement to sweep away all national borders, while fascist ones did not. Like all easy answers, it's an imperfect one, but that's the gist of it.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:17 AM on November 22 [4 favorites]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 10:17 AM on November 22 [4 favorites]
This article doesn't touch on the right wing prepper scene, and I wonder if there are other unaffiliated rightist actors this isn't included in this analysis. But it is interesting that as he points out - today's militant armed mobs are much older than the fascist street gang violence of the mid-century, but also of the 80s and 90s US racist scene.
posted by latkes at 10:19 AM on November 22
posted by latkes at 10:19 AM on November 22
Mitheral, I'm not saying violence against trans folks doesn't exist in Hungary, let alone the US.
What I am saying is that the shift in the big picture, at least as it works in Hungary, upon whose policies Project 2025 is based, isn't to see this officially promoted, or even unofficially promoted. It's in a steady increase in organized bureaucratic dehumanization. Yes, this kind of thing existed before. But under this model, it's the primary focus.
In Hungary's case, the ruling party Fidesz seems to take particular delight in constantly chipping away at the rights and sense of security of its trans citizens while still staying juuuuuuuust far enough away from anything that would make objections from the EU loud enough to have to answer for.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:21 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
What I am saying is that the shift in the big picture, at least as it works in Hungary, upon whose policies Project 2025 is based, isn't to see this officially promoted, or even unofficially promoted. It's in a steady increase in organized bureaucratic dehumanization. Yes, this kind of thing existed before. But under this model, it's the primary focus.
In Hungary's case, the ruling party Fidesz seems to take particular delight in constantly chipping away at the rights and sense of security of its trans citizens while still staying juuuuuuuust far enough away from anything that would make objections from the EU loud enough to have to answer for.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:21 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
And those have gone up in price because of wage hikes for those service sector workers. Something is just not adding up.
I have been toying for a while with making an FPP about the rising prices of goods over the last twenty years, because it’s actually a complicated host of factors coming together that most people are unaware of, but tend to have a frog-boiling effect until folks start gasping. Climate change affecting agricultural feed affecting beef prices affecting dairy replacement affecting milk prices affecting cheese prices affecting mozzarella production affecting the price of a pizza type stuff. Planned obsolescence and failure of right to repair affecting big ticket items lowering discretionary spending ability. And all that stuff adds up. If it were just the wages, it would even out - but it’s not. Bosses want you to think it’s wages so you oppose minimum wage hikes. But that’s really not it.
posted by corb at 10:26 AM on November 22 [13 favorites]
I have been toying for a while with making an FPP about the rising prices of goods over the last twenty years, because it’s actually a complicated host of factors coming together that most people are unaware of, but tend to have a frog-boiling effect until folks start gasping. Climate change affecting agricultural feed affecting beef prices affecting dairy replacement affecting milk prices affecting cheese prices affecting mozzarella production affecting the price of a pizza type stuff. Planned obsolescence and failure of right to repair affecting big ticket items lowering discretionary spending ability. And all that stuff adds up. If it were just the wages, it would even out - but it’s not. Bosses want you to think it’s wages so you oppose minimum wage hikes. But that’s really not it.
posted by corb at 10:26 AM on November 22 [13 favorites]
Someone once said that when people say 'The Economy', it really just means 'The Stock Market', so it's an easy substitution I use to put it into context (as in, the status of The Economy doesn't say or tell me anything about what's going on in people's real lives and experiences).
posted by 7ajax7 at 10:28 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
posted by 7ajax7 at 10:28 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
I'm no economist but there are more people living on the street in the US than there have been at least since the 30s. Housing costs separate from any other cost of goods is a huge crisis. But I just don't think economics are the only factor at play. We're in the midst of a social collapse - we lived through a horrific pandemic. Climate catastrophe is happening now. We are bombarded by images and messages that are impossible to evaluate or interpret accurately in real time. Life expectancy is going down for the first time in many decades. And crucially, fascism is on the rise internationally.
posted by latkes at 10:31 AM on November 22 [14 favorites]
posted by latkes at 10:31 AM on November 22 [14 favorites]
Other fun facts from my extended "We're headed for Hungary!!!!" rant:
--after record numbers of migrants were expelled, the agriculture, construction, and cargo industries collapsed, causing massive inflation between 14-24%. Food prices rose as much as 40% year over year. It did start to ease up this year when Orbán quietly started to allow migrants again.
--political party advertising in Hungary is strictly regulated and limited, but the government has a huge, taxpayer funded budget to advise the public on important issues. Fidesz uses this to place essentially unlimited political advertisements paid for from the national budget.
--voters can choose to vote outside their own districts in many cases, and the allowances for these just so happen to shift voting majorities heavily to Orbán's ruling party.
I can go on and on! I'm so fun at parties now.
(HUGEST POSSIBLE SIGH)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:31 AM on November 22 [15 favorites]
--after record numbers of migrants were expelled, the agriculture, construction, and cargo industries collapsed, causing massive inflation between 14-24%. Food prices rose as much as 40% year over year. It did start to ease up this year when Orbán quietly started to allow migrants again.
--political party advertising in Hungary is strictly regulated and limited, but the government has a huge, taxpayer funded budget to advise the public on important issues. Fidesz uses this to place essentially unlimited political advertisements paid for from the national budget.
--voters can choose to vote outside their own districts in many cases, and the allowances for these just so happen to shift voting majorities heavily to Orbán's ruling party.
I can go on and on! I'm so fun at parties now.
(HUGEST POSSIBLE SIGH)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:31 AM on November 22 [15 favorites]
We are so fucked.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:47 AM on November 22 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:47 AM on November 22 [4 favorites]
Yea I've heard all the rational reasons, but what I want (need) to know is why, deep down in their guts, do so many of us (Americans) hate so many others?
Looking at it from my Canadian perspective, I keep thinking about three main factors: 1) Trump let the cat out of the bag on being a terrible person and things that our ids wanted but that we were able to surpress previously are now allowed, even encouraged. He made hating people great again. 2) US news media is too biased and too entertaining. Even Canadians are addicted. It further divides people and 'others' them. 3) Bot armies and content farms are creating and amplifying the hateful messaging. On reddit, TikTok, YouTube, news comment sections - everywhere (except here). They used to be easy to spot but it's getting harder and harder.
People are distressed and it's sadly no wonder that this entertaining hatefulness is a balm to them. And they're being intentionally manipulated. So it's also by design. And it's happening here too. It's happening everywhere.
posted by kitcat at 11:01 AM on November 22 [9 favorites]
Looking at it from my Canadian perspective, I keep thinking about three main factors: 1) Trump let the cat out of the bag on being a terrible person and things that our ids wanted but that we were able to surpress previously are now allowed, even encouraged. He made hating people great again. 2) US news media is too biased and too entertaining. Even Canadians are addicted. It further divides people and 'others' them. 3) Bot armies and content farms are creating and amplifying the hateful messaging. On reddit, TikTok, YouTube, news comment sections - everywhere (except here). They used to be easy to spot but it's getting harder and harder.
People are distressed and it's sadly no wonder that this entertaining hatefulness is a balm to them. And they're being intentionally manipulated. So it's also by design. And it's happening here too. It's happening everywhere.
posted by kitcat at 11:01 AM on November 22 [9 favorites]
I call them armchair fascists.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:05 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
posted by ZenMasterThis at 11:05 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
Aside - damnit, I hate that I continue to get suckered into going to substack and their "we're just fine with Nazis on our site" policies. Can we at least get warned when a link is taking us to that shithole?
posted by evilangela at 11:12 AM on November 22 [2 favorites]
posted by evilangela at 11:12 AM on November 22 [2 favorites]
If people think the history of fascism demands we not use that term more generally to describe hardline authoritarianism, maybe we could just start calling that Fully Automated Luxury Racist Churchy Authoritarianism.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:16 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:16 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
FALRJA
posted by I-Write-Essays at 11:21 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 11:21 AM on November 22 [1 favorite]
I killed your joke by editing "Jesus-y" to "churchy." My bad.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:22 AM on November 22
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:22 AM on November 22
Calling right-wing authoritarianism 'fascist' has historically been used to silence the outflank the left from liberals, so you can see why some people may be allergic to it.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:22 AM on November 22
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:22 AM on November 22
Somebody may have already made this point, but a major point of departure for the MAGA version neofascism vs. the Fascism 1.0 of the interwar years is that the original-brand fascism was a youth-based movement, in which the average street fighter was some guy in his teens or twenties. Now, in events like January 6, a lot of the shock troops are white dudes in their forties & fifties with mortgages, ex-wives, paunches, and back pain. That has got to change the dynamics that determine how, if, and when new forms of fascism emerge. It's a lot easier to worry about the Freikorps than about Meal Team Six.
posted by jonp72 at 11:36 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
posted by jonp72 at 11:36 AM on November 22 [3 favorites]
jonp72: That's a good point. Remember, most of the January 6th crowd were not young conservatives but middle-aged upper middle class adults who could afford trips to DC, hotel rooms, multiple weapons, and tactical gear. This is not a revolution of the poor and disenfranchised, it's a revolution of the just well enough off but still feel disenfranchised because people of color and queer people are rising above their station.
posted by SansPoint at 12:15 PM on November 22 [3 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 12:15 PM on November 22 [3 favorites]
Citizens United is to blame for the reason there are millions of people that can't afford basic necessities. The CEO of Purdue farms doesn't care if you have to choose between buying dinner tonight or insulin shots tomorrow. Coca-Cola and it's parenting company think you already pay too little for their scrumptious, zero nutritious delicacies. The shareholders of Microsoft won't cry when you have to live on the street. If you have anything left over after they have robbed you of everything they can grab they they aren't doing their jobs. That's not the American Way!
posted by hairless ape at 12:23 PM on November 22 [8 favorites]
posted by hairless ape at 12:23 PM on November 22 [8 favorites]
the government has a huge, taxpayer funded budget to advise the public on important issues. Fidesz uses this to place essentially unlimited political advertisements paid for from the national budget.
This is already happening in the Great State of Florida, where DeSantis used our taxpayer money to fund advertising campaigns opposing the ballot initiatives for legalizing abortion and legalizing marijuana, both of which failed by small margins. Motherfucker.
posted by Daily Alice at 12:43 PM on November 22 [6 favorites]
This is already happening in the Great State of Florida, where DeSantis used our taxpayer money to fund advertising campaigns opposing the ballot initiatives for legalizing abortion and legalizing marijuana, both of which failed by small margins. Motherfucker.
posted by Daily Alice at 12:43 PM on November 22 [6 favorites]
That has got to change the dynamics that determine how, if, and when new forms of fascism emerge. It's a lot easier to worry about the Freikorps than about Meal Team Six.
Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan are working on this.
posted by ocschwar at 1:08 PM on November 22 [3 favorites]
Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan are working on this.
posted by ocschwar at 1:08 PM on November 22 [3 favorites]
I had been really counting on Romania to lock Andrew Tate up for life and remove him from the equation at least, but he may getting one of those mysterious legal deus ex machinas that always seem to pop up for the world's most terrible white men.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:12 PM on November 22 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:12 PM on November 22 [1 favorite]
He's not white, so maybe it won't?
posted by Selena777 at 1:16 PM on November 22 [1 favorite]
posted by Selena777 at 1:16 PM on November 22 [1 favorite]
If I may crib from William Gibson:
The Depression is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed.
posted by chromecow at 1:31 PM on November 22 [3 favorites]
The Depression is already here — it's just not very evenly distributed.
posted by chromecow at 1:31 PM on November 22 [3 favorites]
Reflecting on a point from earlier in the thread, DoT's "It's not transition being made illegal"--while I see the point (creating an administrative burden to crush expression is certainly a thing!)--I think we're already seeing a leap past that, an attempt to make transition literally unthinkable:
'Sen. Roger Marshall (R-KS) introduced a bill this week to legally erase transgender people, entitled the “Defining Male and Female Act of 2024.” He claimed that the bill will stop what he called the Biden administration’s attempt to “replace biological sex with dangerous radical gender ideology.”'
The bill reads like someone's blog, "here, let ME explain what sex and gender mean!" except, y'know, it's meant to be a law. I am assuming Marshall has no sense of irony in that what he is doing here is performatively creating sex and gender, waving it into being by codifying it into law? Kansas probably didn't realize they were electing Judith Butler.
posted by mittens at 2:34 PM on November 22
'Sen. Roger Marshall (R-KS) introduced a bill this week to legally erase transgender people, entitled the “Defining Male and Female Act of 2024.” He claimed that the bill will stop what he called the Biden administration’s attempt to “replace biological sex with dangerous radical gender ideology.”'
The bill reads like someone's blog, "here, let ME explain what sex and gender mean!" except, y'know, it's meant to be a law. I am assuming Marshall has no sense of irony in that what he is doing here is performatively creating sex and gender, waving it into being by codifying it into law? Kansas probably didn't realize they were electing Judith Butler.
posted by mittens at 2:34 PM on November 22
i don't think the plan going in is for proper fascism per se, but if it turns out that helps accomplish those goals, then that's what we're gonna get.
Oh, it'll be fascism in all but name. "We're not fascists! (Puts people in camps.) What are you, crazy? (Locks up dissidents.) The liberals are the real fascists! (Goes full Gilead.)"
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:47 PM on November 22 [1 favorite]
Oh, it'll be fascism in all but name. "We're not fascists! (Puts people in camps.) What are you, crazy? (Locks up dissidents.) The liberals are the real fascists! (Goes full Gilead.)"
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:47 PM on November 22 [1 favorite]
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posted by Uncle at 7:06 AM on November 22 [10 favorites]