I am very pleased that you removed the time limit on Projects posts - I had a project I wanted to post, and I am IMMENSELY grateful!

Being a bit of a tech person, I am always excited to see what's going on on the tech side of things, and I am so appreciative of everything that happens there.

(And I'm so appreciative of everything else, too! I just gravitate toward the tech reports.)

Thank you all, so much, for everything you've done this month, and this year, to keep the site running as well as it does!

*** appreciation ***
posted by kristi at 4:55 PM on October 16 [4 favorites]

There is a MeFi cookbook project? Not sure how I missed that! I'd love to help with layout design/type design/graphics and editing!
posted by yueliang at 11:47 AM on October 17 [2 favorites]

Thank you, yueliang, I'll ping you separately and you and anyone can still use this form to share your recipes for the cookbook.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:57 AM on October 17

Great work, everyone! Immensely proud to be a part of this community!
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 4:16 PM on October 17 [2 favorites]

Isn't this the most recent update about the community foundation?
MeFiCoFo update
posted by freethefeet at 9:59 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

Thanks for the update, loup.

What time limit on projects posts?
posted by mpark at 10:28 PM on October 17 [1 favorite]

How do we make feature-pony requests for the new site?
posted by rabia.elizabeth at 2:15 AM on October 18

What time limit on projects posts?

Before, you had to wait one month before posting a second thread. We have now lifted the limit entirely.

How do we make feature-pony requests for the new site?

Short answer: Please hold for now.
Long answer: For now, our main goal is to recreate every subsite as close to the original as possible. When we release the new site's MVP for testing we'll start taking bug reports and we'll work on fixing them so we will not be implementing new features until this phase is done.
posted by loup (staff) at 8:30 AM on October 18 [1 favorite]

Thanks, loup. Might want to update the "Add Project" page: "You can submit one Project post per month"
posted by mpark at 9:15 AM on October 18

Yup, on it.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:27 AM on October 18 [2 favorites]

I'm working with the web host for the staging site to resolve some issues with DNS and database connectivity.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 11:26 AM on October 21 [2 favorites]

Good news, we are only haunted by 1 ghost. Bad news; I'm very lonely
posted by A_Ghost_User at 8:21 PM on October 21 [13 favorites]

DNS and database issues resolved.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 12:10 AM on October 22 [2 favorites]

Any update on the Virtual Halloween Gala?
posted by bowbeacon at 11:57 AM on October 24 [1 favorite]

Yup, I'm making a post for the Gala today.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:40 AM on October 25 [1 favorite]

Are you planning to actually post it?
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 12:35 PM on October 27 [16 favorites]

Are you planning to actually post it?

This comment is honestly so ignorant and rude I am shocked it's been allowed to stand. Moggies, your cradle-of-life privilege is showing and it is not a good look. Earth is not 👏 the center 👏 of the universe 👏 bro. Clearly whatever planet loup lives on their rotational duration is not the same as yours. Please be respectful of other users' experience of solar time and consider that before making another post. Flagged.
posted by phunniemee at 2:52 PM on October 28 [28 favorites]

Earth is not 👏 the center 👏 of the universe 👏 bro

Listen, I'm not one to dogpile on the mods, who I think are overall doing a good job in tough circumstances, but also I think that asking for a status update after two days isn't beyond the pale, and I don't think there's any need to break out the clap-hands here like nobody was paying attention.
posted by whir at 7:04 PM on October 28 [2 favorites]

Sometimes I'm reading a Tumblr post that seems nonsensical, until I notice the URL is "one-time-i-dreamt" which provides me sudden context. This happens on Metafilter as well, but sometimes it takes my brain a second to register that the username is meant to be pronounced "funny me" and then I go "ohhhhhhh."

Anyway, I'm sure the consequences of accidentally taking a phunniemee comment inappropriately seriously are extremely dire and I'd like to go on record as saying I've definitely never done that. Promise.
posted by brook horse at 8:00 PM on October 28 [10 favorites]

If the ansible link to loup's planet ever re-phases, it would be good to know what's happening with access to the new site. It was "hoped" to be ready later in the week of October 16th, and apparently the DNS issues were resolved.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:12 AM on October 29 [7 favorites]

Nothing is ever as well-attended as a party announced on 48 hours notice.
posted by bowbeacon at 6:33 AM on October 29 [6 favorites]

there are concepts of a party
posted by bowmaniac at 6:38 AM on October 29 [13 favorites]

Honestly, I'm not even mad anymore. I'm just impressed.
posted by bowbeacon at 10:40 AM on October 29 [2 favorites]

loup certainly does have a knack for taking his schtick to some pretty mind-boggling extremes. Great gig if you can get it, I guess?
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 11:56 AM on October 29 [2 favorites]

loup's pronouns are they/them.
posted by JanetLand at 12:47 PM on October 29 [5 favorites]

Loup’s adverbs are later/never.

I agree with basically all of the critiques of the mods/administration, but could you not with this? I don't think that telling people they need to do a better job is harassment, but this kind of is.
posted by dusty potato at 12:57 PM on October 29 [13 favorites]

flag it, maybe that'll draw them out
posted by phunniemee at 1:01 PM on October 29 [10 favorites]

Crap; knew I should have linked to some eXtReMe gOrE so that the mods had a reason to be woken from their slumbers and go ham with the edit button
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 1:40 PM on October 29 [3 favorites]

I don't think that telling people they need to do a better job is harassment, but this kind of is.

I mean, we all know what would happen if someone told loup they were disappointed in the job they’re doing: absolutely nothing. loup would be silent, any mods that dared to enter the conversation would be like “¯\_(ツ)_/¯, it’s loup, who the fuck knows”, and that would be that. When no one is able to get basic answers and promised deadlines come and go with no acknowledgment from staff, folks are going to talk about it.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 2:01 PM on October 29 [6 favorites]

I don't feel that when you are frustrated at someone it's okay to just reach for some part of their identity as fodder. I think this site has been mismanaged to an almost comical extent, but personally at the end of the day my priority is always going to be other queer people's safety and dignity, moreso than holding people accountable for the health of a fast-fading web community.
posted by dusty potato at 2:12 PM on October 29 [10 favorites]

maybe it would help if we subpoenaed the information on the Virtual Halloween Gala?
posted by bowmaniac at 2:43 PM on October 29 [8 favorites]

I somehow missed whatever this subpoena business was about… anyone willing to catch me up? Sounds exciting. Is T*m C****e back at it again?
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 2:56 PM on October 29

We should shift the focus away from the specific staff member and refer to the person in question as "A Mod" instead.
posted by Diskeater at 3:08 PM on October 29 [10 favorites]

not just everyday big moggies: "I somehow missed whatever this subpoena business was about… anyone willing to catch me up? Sounds exciting."

In the September update, people were taking the admin to task for always being late on their updates, and someone commented this in admin's defense:

"Y'all are fixating on "weekly fundraiser updates" as if it's the only task on staff's plate, or if it's the highest priority task and everything else should come second.

Off the top of my head, I can think of a ton of things that online community managers regularly have to prioritize that most community members aren't even aware are happening behind the scenes:

- Subpoenas from law enforcement or discovery in lawsuits..."

So that's become a bit of a meme.
posted by Bugbread at 4:29 PM on October 29 [5 favorites]

We’ll wrap the fundraising by the end of this month with the release of the new site’s MVP, the MeFi Cookbook, the Pet Tax wall, the AMA Podcast and a special Halloween Virtual Gala.

So, we have about 48 hours left on this. What are the odds?
posted by bowbeacon at 5:19 PM on October 29 [6 favorites]

did... did ANY of those things happen yet? AFAIK, no, but I would be happy to be shown wrong....
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:52 PM on October 29 [1 favorite]

The Pet Wall is definitely mostly done, since that’s why Loup couldn’t post updates last month.
posted by bowbeacon at 5:54 PM on October 29 [3 favorites]

I agree with basically all of the critiques of the mods/administration, but could you not with this? I don't think that telling people they need to do a better job is harassment, but this kind of is.

it's extremely funny though
posted by Sebmojo at 6:15 PM on October 29 [3 favorites]

snofoam: "Loup’s adverbs are later/never."

Gross to see people who'd normally call pronoun jokes shitty and bigoted post (and favorite) something like this the moment they feel personally annoyed by an NB person. And over something as mundane as "not being responsive enough in site updates."
posted by Rhaomi at 6:29 PM on October 29 [11 favorites]

Pronoun jokes are shitty and bigoted. I’m not going to speak for anyone else, but this queer found the adverbs joke to be a clever and unexpected delight.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 6:33 PM on October 29 [8 favorites]

I thought it in the vein of WHAT R UR ADJECTIVES but YMM understandably V.
posted by brook horse at 6:42 PM on October 29 [3 favorites]

Maybe I am mistaken, but is there not an event in 48 hours for Halloween? How can people participate, or donate or whatever, if the person paid to announce the event doesn't? It's not unreasonable to expect that.
posted by CtrlAltD at 7:00 PM on October 29 [3 favorites]

And over something as mundane as "not being responsive enough in site updates."

Point of order, what's annoying people is loup repeatedly, routinely, for months not being as responsive as they say they are going to be. Particularly about fundraising initiatives. Repeatedly. Literally stop committing if you are unable to keep a commitment.

I detest Metatalk it is a neverending source of burnout.
posted by phunniemee at 7:06 PM on October 29 [16 favorites]

Literally stop committing if you are unable to keep a commitment.

I don't understand why they even stay here.
posted by jgirl at 7:52 AM on October 30 [4 favorites]

I don't understand why they even stay here.

Do they, though?
posted by bowbeacon at 7:53 AM on October 30 [1 favorite]

As of late, I’ve seen more useful activity from spectral presences here than I have from loup. Might be time to downgrade them to the “cryptid; existence doubtful” file 👻
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 8:04 AM on October 30

Bad news for fans of hauntings. Sounds like our local ghost may have been banned.
posted by umber vowel at 11:09 AM on October 30 [2 favorites]

Thank you for this update.

When I think about the health of the site, I think about the community and levels of engagement as much as I think about dollars. Along those lines, it would be great to have a brief community engagement report, similar to the P&L, containing things like number of daily site visitors, number of active members, posts/comments on the various subsites, etc. I'm not sure what exactly the right metrics are, but the goal would be a quick snapshot of the vitality of the community.

Has something like that been considered in the past? I haven't been following Meta regularly, so I apologize if this has already been considered and dismissed.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:18 AM on October 30 [3 favorites]

In all seriousness, if you haven't been reading Meta for a while, you may not realize that these comments are explicitly not read by the staff, so you have to use the contact form.
posted by bowbeacon at 11:53 AM on October 30 [2 favorites]

Oh shoot no that's not it. We forgot to say #pleaseanswer
posted by phunniemee at 11:58 AM on October 30 [8 favorites]

it would be great to have a brief community engagement report, similar to the P&L, containing things like number of daily site visitors, number of active members, posts/comments on the various subsites, etc.

Not quite what you want but there is the (unofficial) Metafilter Activity Stats page.
posted by googly at 12:20 PM on October 30 [6 favorites]

Thanks, googly, that pretty much covers it.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 12:42 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]

Addressing a few comment above:

“it would be good to know what's happening with access to the new site. It was "hoped" to be ready later in the week of October 16th, and apparently the DNS issues were resolved.”

For full context, those DNS issues were resolved and then others popped, kirkaracha has been tackling them and monitoring them. As soon as we are certain we are good to go we’ll share access to the new site for testing.

“it would be great to have a brief community engagement report”

Yes, this is something I also want to have and have been having conversations with the team about the Matomo data we have.

“The Pet Wall is definitely mostly done”
Yes, it is, but I’m still ironing out the printing and shipping.

More details on the fundraiser and remaining activities to come, but for now, let me give you some context regarding the Gala post.

I want to sincerely apologize regarding the Gala post and my handling of the situation. I made that comment on Friday morning before my shift (we recently moved my friday shifts to decrease mod gaps) and then came online later that day to catch up with the last Meta, follow up on a couple of potential projects we are discussing with specific members to us the contribution budget we have set aside and running number for the fundraiser… By the end of my shift I left and did not realize I had entirely forgotten about the Gala post. What began as an oversight evolved into a more complex issue (at least for me) over several days. I was occupied with other responsibilities including following up on projects that might finally put our member contribution budget to use, and when I finally returned to the thread on Tuesday, I found myself in a difficult position: needing to moderate comments that targeted me personally. I regret that my anxiety in this situation led me to freeze rather than take appropriate action. This inaction allowed an unhealthy conversation to develop where problematic comments remained unaddressed.

I acknowledge that what started as an honest mistake created unnecessary frustration for our community and led to other members doing the emotional labor and pushing on the behalf of mods. Making anyone's identity the subject of jokes is unacceptable, and I should have addressed this promptly regardless of my personal involvement.
posted by loup (staff) at 3:01 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]

Thank you for apologizing to the community.

However, sincere apologies also involve an action plan to change the behavior that led to the apology being needed in the first place. This is far from the first time that we've seen promises to do things timely that haven't come through, and it's pretty frustrating to see the ongoing pattern here.

I hope you are able to talk with other members of the mod team to figure out ways for Metafilter staff to better follow through on their commitments to the community.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:25 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]

Making anyone's identity the subject of jokes is unacceptable, and I should have addressed this promptly regardless of my personal involvement.

loup, why are you presenting this as something only you could do? Are the other mods not allowed in MetaTalk? Are you not able to have them assist if needed, even if it’s normally your responsibility? This is a serious question and I’m hoping you’ll be able to shed some light on this strange dynamic, because it honestly doesn’t seem to be working for anyone.

p.s. is the gala still happening? I know you said there would be forthcoming details, but Halloween is already happening for a good chunk of the world.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 3:32 PM on October 30 [2 favorites]

Also, nobody (none of the commenters, none of the other mods) pinged you over the past 5 days to remind you that you forgot to do something where time was of the essence? That's just...so incredibly odd. Like, I understand not being on-call, but even at jobs I've done where nobody was on-call, if I forgot something major that was also time-sensitive, somebody would call me up and ask about it, if only to say "Hey, Bugbread, you forgot to send that email that needs to be sent. Want me to send it instead?" But in this case, just...nothing? None of the other mods read the thread in the past 5 days and got in touch with you, or decided to do the Gala post on your behalf?

That's such a strange work dynamic. I don't think I've ever worked at a workplace where things were that lax.
posted by Bugbread at 3:44 PM on October 30 [5 favorites]

This is a serious question and I’m hoping you’ll be able to shed some light on this strange dynamic, because it honestly doesn’t seem to be working for anyone.

I vaguely recall that it's related to some consensus/decision that was Reached after many heated MeTas some years ago, but as guidelines are either never compiled or are scattered in various FAQs and MeTas across the site, it's hard to say.
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:46 PM on October 30 [1 favorite]

(Just to be clear here: while it may sound like I'm being critical of you here, Loup, I'm not. I'm also not being supportive. It just appears to be a workplace atmosphere which is very different from anything I've encountered, but if that's the way it is, then that's the way it is. I'm not paying for a service, so I'm not upset, and I'm not getting service, so I'm not happy. Just neutrally surprised.)
posted by Bugbread at 3:47 PM on October 30 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I recall some announcement about that but it’s just so flagrantly not working, and I don’t understand how anyone expected it to. If the person appointed as spox for the staff can’t communicate effectively, why even bother having them in that role? It’s literally worse than nothing. I have absolutely nothing against loup as a person, but I simply don’t know why they’ve put themselves in this position and why their boss and/or coworkers haven’t stepped in to fix things.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 3:52 PM on October 30 [12 favorites]

I don’t think a single thing about the fundraiser happened as planned. The fundraiser was supposed to last from mid-August through September. Then it was extended through October (without acknowledgement or explanation) and the virtual gala became the virtual Halloween gala. Now we’re at the end of October, none of the events have happened, and more details are set “to come” a month after everything was supposed to end.

This isn’t the first time something like this has happened but I’m not management and I don’t want to pile on.

Do the things you say you’re going to do, when you say you’re going to do them.
posted by Diskeater at 4:24 PM on October 30 [16 favorites]

I am so confused about the pet tax wall. My understanding of this, please correct me, is that it's a bunch of random photos of other people's pets that are being collaged into a poster and offered for sale. Is this accurate? Is there a market for this? I love animals, I love many mefites, and I know many mefites' animals both in person and via instagram. I am a prime demographic for a fundraising effort that involves Metafilter pets, and I still have zero interest in having them on a poster.

I don't understand this at all as a revenue generator, especially as it's consumed 2 months mod time in work and effort and has taken priority over other fundraising efforts on the site.
posted by phunniemee at 5:11 PM on October 30 [27 favorites]

That is also my understanding, and I share your confusion.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:51 PM on October 30 [8 favorites]

I found myself in a difficult position: needing to moderate comments that targeted me personally

It sounds like you've had an awful few days, and I hope things improve for you. This remark, however, is a big red flag for me. You should never be in that position. Firstly because mods shouldn't be targeted personally, but also because that's a fundamental conflict of interest. This isn't the only sign I've noticed lately that mods' training seems to have a huge deficiency. There are plenty of rules around here these days, but sadly little evidence I can see of basic governance. MeFi is on the cusp of a huge change. Keeping members' trust during that change will be crucial. Because of the organic way the site has evolved, I can see why "pick the right person and let them work it out" became the default (along with Matt making a great choice for the first mod seeming to justify that approach), but it's clearly not working now. I can see evidence that mods are trained in dealing with racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and other unacceptable behaviour (which of course I applaud), but the basics seem to be neglected.

Pick good people and support them with the necessary resources, including training them in how to keep a fractious^* community together in a fair, understanding and kind way. I'd like to see "egalitarian" added to that approach, but I accept that reasonable minds might disagree.

^* Not all the time, and outside of MetaTalk and posts about politics and/or the Levant, maybe not even that much of the time, but you all know what I mean.
posted by GeckoDundee at 3:37 AM on October 31

If printing and shipping the pet wall is taking up any amount of time, have you considered just uploading it to RedBubble or something and letting them handle it?
posted by bowbeacon at 4:01 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]

So... An update for a already delayed (?), time sensitive event *connected to fundraising* was declared to be coming a week before said event was theoretically scheduled. It somehow fell through the cracks for five days? And then, light teasing (unless something got deleted without a mod note?) of a paid staff member not delivering said time sensitive fundraising information resulted in enough problems that the information still hasn't been delivered anywhere to the last day before it has to be labeled Post-Mortem Halloween event? I.......... ........wut. Just.... Why would anyone be motivated to donate money or especially time......
posted by Jacen at 4:38 AM on October 31 [9 favorites]

Like I said, I'm not even mad. Just impressed. Making an announcement 2 weeks ago that you had to do roughly the easiest things in the world (talk for 30 minutes, put images into a Canva template, and schedule a zoom meeting) and then not doing them, all the while using this as a fundraising effort...it's just almost too perfect.
posted by bowbeacon at 6:46 AM on October 31 [3 favorites]

Personal request that we try to keep comments and criticisms constructive.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:00 AM on October 31 [4 favorites]

Winnie, is there anything specific happening that you’d like not to be happening? From what I can see, pretty much every comment recently has been constructive (with the obvious caveat that staff needs to be open to receiving it). I’m sure it’s not fun criticism to receive, but it’s legitimate and actionable.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 7:11 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]

I can't speak for Winnie, but remember how we used to talk about the nature of pile-ons--where even if individual comments were themselves innocuous, the number and velocity of them provided an impact that no one commenter may have intended? These threads feel awfully heavy these days, as everyone gets their constructive criticism in.
posted by mittens at 7:22 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]

Winnie, is there anything specific happening that you’d like not to be happening?

I don't like the pile-on criticism of Loup. I understand the frustration. But mocking, snarky criticism of a community member isn't helpful and won't move things forward. I won't bother quoting examples. Just read through the post and you'll see plenty. There should be a way to fix things that doesn't involve this kind of repeated public criticism. It's hard when no one is in charge and everything is done by committee, so I don't know what the right way is, but I'm pretty confident that this is the wrong way.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:44 AM on October 31 [7 favorites]

The right way would be for ownership/staff to grab control of what’s been an ongoing and steadily escalating clusterfuck and make the necessary changes. I agree that what’s happening is “the wrong way” from a functional normal business point of view, but the fact that there’s been such sustained, unnecessary failure with no one stepping in is what got if here, and has made it pretty obvious that just hoping and praying for this ship to right itself is not working.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 8:58 AM on October 31 [11 favorites]

I 100 percent agree with Winnie the Proust. Would you (Plural) says any of those nasty, snarky things to loup's face??
posted by 15L06 at 9:00 AM on October 31 [1 favorite]

I would make the comment I made above to their face.
posted by jgirl at 9:04 AM on October 31 [1 favorite]

Yeah, absolutely I would.
posted by bowbeacon at 9:09 AM on October 31 [2 favorites]

Anything I type on Metafilter I would say to someone else's face. Which is why I get so chapped about people putting words in my mouth.

Actually I would probably swear more in person, but if you do that here while being critical you get deleted.
posted by phunniemee at 9:11 AM on October 31 [5 favorites]

It's hard when no one is in charge and everything is done by committee

I think the issue is that loup is supposed to be in charge. I don't remember the threads in which this was discussed, but I have specifically asked several times over the years what the actual management structure was - run by committee? run by Jessamyn? run by loup? - and it took a long time to get an answer, but if I'm not mistaken loup confirmed it was basically the latter.

And pile-ons are a predictable thing when there is nothing else to steer a discussion, which is something moderators should know how to do - that's what moderation is.

I know repeated public criticism is hard, but I do not think this dynamic is fixable from the member side of things. People are asking for a fairly low bar to be met at this point.

Would you (Plural) says any of those nasty, snarky things to loup's face??

None of us is loup's manager, but "you consistently do things late, or never, and that includes communicating in a timely way about promised things arriving late or never, and you consistently fail to delegate tasks to people who might be more able to get them done, and this is very frustrating to be on the receiving end of and I'm worried it's doing entirely needless damage to the site" is really legit criticism imo.

Would you act this way in your organization? (I say this with a lot of empathy for loup, since I too by nature have abysmal time management abilities combined with totally unfounded optimism that leads me to overpromise and underdeliver, plus an ingrained tendency to think that grandiose gestures like a gala or whatnot will make up for everything. My only solution has been to find work that prioritizes different abilities that I do have; but I did at least learn to recognize and somewhat pre-empt these tendencies, let people know in a timely way that I was way behind no matter how bad it felt to admit it, and learn how to prioritize essentials.)
posted by trig at 9:14 AM on October 31 [15 favorites]

First off, thank you to anyone who has reached to the mod team in general and to me privately, it means a lot! There's plenty to address from the comments above and I'll do that ASAP but I want to get a few things out first.

Some Quick updates:
– Pet tax wall is ready and I’m making sure the printing and shipping is all set (thank you bowbeacon for the suggestion, I was planning to use Printful, but will look into RedBubble today as well).
– The Cookbook has been sent to a community member for help with design and editing.
– The AMA podcast is scheduled to be recorded November 11. We only got 7 questions in total so we will skip the voting part but those questions are interesting enough to proceed. If you still want to ask anything (yes, anything) drop your questions here.
– The halloween Gala post is up here.
posted by loup (staff) at 11:21 AM on October 31

I want to sincerely apologize regarding the Gala post and my handling of the situation. I made that comment on Friday morning before my shift (we recently moved my friday shifts to decrease mod gaps) and then came online later that day to catch up with the last Meta, follow up on a couple of potential projects we are discussing with specific members to us the contribution budget we have set aside and running number for the fundraiser… By the end of my shift I left and did not realize I had entirely forgotten about the Gala post. What began as an oversight evolved into a more complex issue (at least for me) over several days. I was occupied with other responsibilities including following up on projects that might finally put our member contribution budget to use, and when I finally returned to the thread on Tuesday, I found myself in a difficult position: needing to moderate comments that targeted me personally.

How long did it take you to post this? How long do you think it took jessamyn to post this? Why do you never just do something that you say you're going to do when you say you're going to do it?
Do you still wonder why posts are down? Why fundraising is down? Why people are leaving the site?
posted by bowmaniac at 12:19 PM on October 31 [7 favorites]

As my spouse would quote, "we're perfectly aligned for the results we're getting."

The mods weren't hired as fundraisers.
Loup wasn't hired to run a business strategically or otherwise.
Jessamyn was clear she only wanted to hold paperwork for a transition period, which has taken longer than I think anyone anticipated.

The result is people are probably not in the job they want or feel expertise in, and that is always stressful. And we all know MetaTalk is exhausting - it's also the main spot for community engagement and so here we are.

I sniped about fundraising in the last thread. I think the effort vs. ROI is really off, and the story I'm telling myself about that is that the last year the mods were criticized for doing too little so this year they tried to do too much. That would fit with the reactive decision-making that has plagued the site for quite a while now.

But learn and move on; there can be more fundraising later if there is a later.

Yes, it's frustrating to watch the slide on the site but it's not just one person. The entire structure is way off kilter at this point. The best activity is to get the MeFiFoCo or whatever it is running so that it can do fundraising and hopefully have enough cold hard cash to hire a ED *and* have that ED paid and have a budget to manage long enough to turn some things around. I know they are doing this but maybe this discussion will help to highlight how urgent it is.

In the meantime, if loup is anxious and exhausted and doesn't have backup, maybe this is something the board can address even if it's just to have someone who can listen. Because that sounds very untenable. Loup, I hope you got your feet under you and if not, I hope you take a bit of space to do that.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:47 PM on October 31 [14 favorites]

2nd’ing everything bowmaniac just asked. Site staff/ownership needs to answer those questions, publicly and honestly, if there’s going to be any chance of fixing this mess. Over and over, the wagons get circled, [oft ludicrous] band-aid fixes are proposed and accepted, and then the whole issue just gets disregarded because [reasons??] and we’re back at square one with even less site users in tow because a fresh wave of people just couldn’t hack this kind of dysfunction.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 12:54 PM on October 31 [3 favorites]

I've been drafting this comment non stop since l posted my last comment. Thank you for waiting. I’ll try to address some of the questions/feedback from this thread and from the messages we’ve gotten privately:

Why are things the way they are? Why does MeFi operate like this?
Since March of 2022 our goal has been to become a fully member-driven site where members have real power over the site’s structure, budget, decision making, etc.

It was clear back then that having all the site and moderation responsibilities sit on one person wasn’t sustainable or even doable (moreover for someone working part time) but I assumed the role under the understanding that this was temporary and would change significantly as we reworked the site’s governance structure.

Unfortunately, we’ve been stuck in this transition period for over two years (due to reasons beyond our control) and this has led to inconsistent communication, timelines being missed and several issues that are beyond evident and frustrating for everyone involved (me included) that has only been intensified by my unfounded optimism that leads to overpromising and underdelivering (thanks trig, it shows how much attention you pay). This is even worse when you factor in that I have been Project Manager for over 10 years (I know, this might sound baffling to many, like, loup? A project WHAT!?).

Now, one of the frustrations I personally share with most people here is knowing that decisions need to be made, structural changes are necessary and urgent and all we got is a lack of clear direction. I hope you understand that this is, whether we like it or not, is currently by design, I alone cannot and will not make decisions on behalf of the member-driven structure we want to achieve and many of the decisions made over the past 2 years have also been made with the goal of keeping the mod team away from further burnout. The only exception to this has been the rebuilt of the site and that decision was made because we finally had the budget, resources and someone who has the expertise, right motivation and undivided attention to do it.


The good news is that the Interim Board is aware of the urgency and is working to get us where we want.

So, what’s the current structure of MeFi?
Currently, Jessamyn is the owner of MetaFilter LLC but I take care of decision making when it comes to daily operations, for more strategic things I will confer with Jessamyn and we'll come to a decision together.
Then we have 2 tech members, one maintaining the old site and another building the new site.
And then there’s the mods, there are 5 of us and we all work on general moderation across all siubsites while having specific assignments (like maintenance of the Bes of MeFi blog, social media account or the BIPPOC Board).

All or most of the admin work is currently done within the mod shifts already assigned to stay within the operational budget we have.

Yeah, but why is loup still here?

You know, I’ve wondered the same in the past couple of months.

Allow me to elaborate: Being in this position for so long with no sight of change has had a toll on me and my ability to do some aspects of my job satisfactorily. It’s even more stressful when I’m used to managing tighter deadlines and projects with budgets and revenue goals in the millions of dollars with tens of stakeholders on a daily basis… but MeFi is an entirely different beast, and one where a lot of it ends up being a one person show.
I felt a lot of momentum and positivity back in June when we were about to announce the rebuilding of the entire site from scratch and we were expecting to have the new entity in place in just a few weeks.

Then, things started going off the rails, a couple of contentious metas happened at the same time that one of our staff members had an accident and that required attention as well. Then, I needed to make the actual announcement meta of the new site and I decided to close the last meta saying “we need to come back to this but this will have to wait” (yes, there’s only so much attention you can pay to everything going on).

Since then, we decided to move on with this year’s fundraiser (it was a no brainer to me, between having no fundraiser and having one that wasn't going to go very well) and wanted to plug that with the incorporation of MeFiCoCo and the release of the new site. As you can see by now, none of these aligned which added extra stress and frustration again and I started to wonder if my involvement is hurting the community more than helping it.

At this particular moment in time, I know I’m still here because I still stand by the decision I’ve made back in 2022 to hold this position until the community can take over. I would have probably stepped down at some point in the past, but transferring these responsibilities to someone else in the middle of the transition would have perpetuated the structural problem we are currently all facing.

Is loup okay?
Yeah, mostly. TBH, I had a full on panic attack this week and was paralyzed. I’ve been dealing with generalized anxiety for years but, thankfully, I have access to proper therapy, a support network, and the support of the MeFi Team, Jessamyn and, most recently, the Interim Board.

This didn’t happen because people were “being mean” or because of the fundraiser itself and I knew that I had dropped the ball on things I said I was going to do. This happened because I knew the impact of my mistakes. I knew this would hurt the community in a way that’s awful, you see, while all I’m trying to do is to put the business that supports the community in a better place, I can't ignore the impact of my actions with the community.

And then I knew how this could easily start the same cycle we’ve seen before: people start voicing their valid frustrations (some of which precede me), and those in turn get mixed with criticism that requires some form of moderation and (regardless of who does the moderation) there’s always the risk that a mod note or deletion will derail the entire thread itself, and then, other members will feel compelled to push back against the criticism (which I appreciate, but at the same time I’m not OK with members doing the emotional labor for something not aimed a them in any way).

What changes can we expect?

Not many, in the immediate term, the limited resources (time/budget), staff burnout and lack of an actual governance structure won’t change overnight. BUT the Interim Board is moving ahead to take over MeFi LLC and I’ll be happy to work with them to see the transition through and hopefully, in few months we’ll finally become the member-driven organization we want to become.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:40 PM on October 31 [12 favorites]

Thanks for the response, loup. I haven't been quite as engaged here lately as I'd like, but I appreciate the updates and news about the transition. I want MetaFilter to keep going, and maybe still be here in another 25 years, so it's good to see the progress. Hope things smooth out for you soon, and that the frustrations of this job don't cause harm that you can't shed eventually with some rest, relaxation, and time doing the things you love. Same to the rest of the mods and site staff.
posted by cupcakeninja at 3:13 PM on October 31 [4 favorites]

I don't think it's sustainable or wise to be in a holding pattern until the non-profit and new board take over. I wish people with power would rethink that decision. It's been causing harm and will continue to cause harm. It's not a neutral stance.
posted by lapis at 9:10 PM on October 31 [15 favorites]

Yeah, I don’t understand the explanation that management’s hands are tied until the transition to the nonprofit is complete. If you don’t want to do anything that would go against the wishes of a future community government, then you can start handing over the reins to the community today. Hold elections for volunteer mods and admins. I don’t get why this is impossible just because an LLC happens to own the domain and servers. Reddit is an extremely for-profit company but it still has volunteer mods and community-led subreddits.

I’m sure the nonprofit has some advantages in the long term. But I don’t see why it’s necessary to start resolving the root issues affecting MetaFilter here and now. You have the power! If you don’t want to use it, you can hand it over to someone who does, with or without the formal structure of a nonprofit.
posted by april of time at 10:54 PM on October 31 [6 favorites]

Would you (Plural) says any of those nasty, snarky things to loup's face??

None of us is loup's manager, but "you consistently do things late, or never, and that includes communicating in a timely way about promised things arriving late or never, and you consistently fail to delegate tasks to people who might be more able to get them done, and this is very frustrating to be on the receiving end of and I'm worried it's doing entirely needless damage to the site" is really legit criticism imo.

the criticism it totally legit, and i think that worded this way, is constructive.
What to me crosses a line is the banter style exchanges above, where several commenters riff off each others "witty" oneliners a la the tasteless pronoun stuff, but not only that.
Reading those makes me feel like i am back at school, hearing the "in-group" shredd an unpopular student all the while staying away from plain insults but nevertheless creating a vibe of "WE don't Like you", including the innocent "why are they still here". Someone above called it harassment. I agree.
I am not writing this to defend loup. I believe criticism stated matter of fact is completly okay.
I deliberated for quite a while if i had the guts and nerve to speak up or even cared enough. After all it is only pixels on the Internet. And i can just not read the stuff. But i did, and loup is a real person. To me it is not right to treat anyone this way, and mostly i write this comment here not for loup but others like me who may also feel this type of pile on is not okay.
posted by 15L06 at 2:41 AM on November 1 [6 favorites]

This unpopular student, they were being paid to go to school?
posted by minsies at 4:23 AM on November 1

I guess i could have used the example of a colleague at work, or perhaps a service person such as a waiter.
The point for me is not loup's position or competence or lack thereof. It is the attitude shown towards a fellow human being, who is reduced to becoming the butt of jokes.
posted by 15L06 at 4:37 AM on November 1

PS even if they student being mocked were paid, and all the observations true, No one should be the target of mocking.
posted by 15L06 at 4:52 AM on November 1

I worked for a highly incompetent man for many years. He earned four times my salary, and as his direct report i could see his incompetence clearly and at times working for him was a nightmare. He supplied so much fodder for making fun of him.
But yet i felt then and still today that ganging up on someone and make them the butt of jokes is a shitty thing to do.
I think that criticism of loup is legit. But address it to jessamyn, the new board and him privately.
If in posted here in public, keep it factual.
posted by 15L06 at 5:02 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]

*them
posted by minsies at 5:09 AM on November 1 [3 favorites]

i feel like you're reading what seems to me like gentle ribbing combined with genuine frustration as some sort of lèse-majesté against the mods. it's not a pileon when 4 people all have the same concerns - people are allowed to voice that they, too, are concerned that this keeps happening.

By volume, there seems to be shockingly (given the lack of response!) little contentless vitriol in the thread - apart from the comment regarding pronouns, can you point to anything that crosses a line from "Frustrated but accurate" to "Non-factual"?
posted by sagc at 5:10 AM on November 1 [4 favorites]

Hi, just popping in as a regular user.

It would probably be more helpful if folks (meaning everyone) remained focused on what they think isn't working moderation wise and/or suggesting alternatives and improvements instead of asking people to "prove" what they believe they saw. MetaTalk posts can often be sidetracked by personal observations and then people feeling they have to defend or prove them, so refraining from getting into that dynamic would be good.

Just an unofficial opinion, folks may do with it as they will.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:21 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]

Ok, here's a suggested alternative and improvement.

On September 13th, Loup had been unable to reply to questions regarding the status of the fundraiser for 4 days because they were building the Pet Tax Wall.

Yesterday, we learned that the Pet Tax Wall is not yet done, and printing and shipping are taking up a significant amount of effort.

For a fundraiser!

Let's be conservative here. Let's say that Loup has spent 1 hour per day, 3 days per week, for the last 7 weeks working on the Pet Tax Wall (any less and it's hard to imagine how it would impact their ability to glance at four comments per day on a thread that they are monitoring).

At, again conservatively, $20/hour, that is 21 hours * $20/hour = $420 of labor spent on the pet tax wall. The pet tax wall, which is intended to be a poster of random internet people's pets, will be sold for...let's say $20. To break even, that means that, assuming the printing and shipping are literally free, Metafilter will have to sell 21 copies of that poster.

What should have been done instead? Simple! Members submit their photos. Those photos go into a directory on someone's computer. "Pet Photos". One day, Loup should have downloaded a free Canva photocollage template and pointed it at the Pet Photo directory on their computer, and Canva would have churned out a perfectly ok pet poster in literally 2 seconds.

Then, Loup should have uploaded the resulting PDF to one of the many print-and-ship-on-demand services on the internet (society6, redbubble, cafepress, whoknowswhateelse) and stuck a price tag on it that let MetaFilter claim a $5 profit per poster/mug/mousepad/whatever the person wants to buy.

Because, and this is super important to note: NOBODY actually cares about the Pet Tax Wall. The Pet Tax Wall is a Macguffin that lets people get some random community feelings out of donating some money to a website they really love and care about, and want to support. Nobody is looking at the Pet Tax Wall and saying "Finally, the art piece that will complete my collection! This is exactly what my living room needs!" They're saying "Oh, cool, cute dogs. Sure, I'll toss $20 at that, help out the site, and have some tenuous connection with my fellow Mefites. That feels fun and good."

That's how you fundraise with something like this.

Same with the "Virtual Gala". What was the plan there? Where's the mechanism for making money? Why did the Virtual Gala post burn out the entire moderation staff to the point of five days of silence if it wasn't even going to make any money? Make people pay $1 to vote! Make people pay $5 to enter! Who knows. Something. Put a price tag on it, and half-ass it! If you're going to half-ass it anyway, don't make it cause a huge fight on your fundraising thread!
posted by bowbeacon at 5:57 AM on November 1 [17 favorites]

what they think isn't working moderation wise and/or suggesting alternatives and improvements

My ask is simple. Assuming no other improvements are possible until the MeFiFoFum or whatever it's called takes over, then at least do this:

✨please✨

Stop giving yourselves deadlines for things that you are not able to meet.


No one (as far as I am aware) asked for a Gala or a Pet Tax Wall. People have been making whispers about a cookbook for literally years, it also didn't have to happen right now. All of this additional pressure to moderating the site is manufactured. Metatalk is queued, releasing a Metatalk at a time that's inconvenient to the mod team is manufactured. It's unnecessary to create this pressure and drama.

If it's true that we're stuck in a holding pattern until some future time, then please stop trying to do new weird things. Put 100% of the limited time and energy into 1) clear and open moderation of the site 2) the internal goals required to meet that future event. Everything not in service of those two things at this time is just noise that stresses y'all out, and it looks to the community like wasted money, time, and effort which pisses the community off.
posted by phunniemee at 6:01 AM on November 1 [28 favorites]

Glad to hear that loup is doing okay.
posted by JanetLand at 6:18 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]

I would much rather have moderators spend their time participating in shaping discussion (not by deleting things, by posting the comments they would like to see, I mean), leaving clear notes indicating when they do delete or edit things, actually prioritizing requests based on a clear site plan (it doesn't have to be complicated, just look at whether you're prioritizing community or user tech experience or inclusion or something else, and use that to guide decisions), and giving clear realistic updates/answers on priorities and timelines, rather than working on, let alone anxiety-spiraling, about these random often self-imposed projects.

It's all weeds, very few trees, let alone forest. I know it's gotten this way in large part because users have been requesting more and more updates on things as it became more and more apparent that things were crashing and that the people in charge were hiding it or ignoring it. Getting out of this pattern requires transparency and vision from the people with the power to implement things.
posted by lapis at 6:25 AM on November 1 [10 favorites]

Or, ya know, what she said in 2021 about how the users have been trying to provide suggestions about and support for needed changes for many many many many many years, and generally getting ignored. It's frustrating that moderators (even if they're not speaking as moderators) keep asking for suggestions as if they've never been given. Especially when there's no acknowledgement in the new requests that previous labor was ignored and no structure presented that would indicate the new requests are going to be stored, evaluated, and implemented in any way.

It's turning into a "It's no longer our job to educate you" thing at this point, given the sheer volume of feedback available on your own site.
posted by lapis at 7:07 AM on November 1 [15 favorites]

Glad to hear that loup is doing okay.

I don’t want to sound callous, but I honestly yearn for the day where site staff can [and are expected to] take care of themselves as part of their job. This is a paid position with responsibilities that should be defined and achievable, and the visitors to the site shouldn’t be required or expected to provide more than basic everyday courtesy in service of the staff not simply keeling over from chronic job-related distress.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 7:52 AM on November 1 [5 favorites]

visitors to the site shouldn’t be required or expected to provide more than basic everyday courtesy

I maintain that that did not happen in this thread, but I get that there are differing views and differing ways of interpreting text on a screen.
posted by JanetLand at 7:56 AM on November 1

Sincerely, how would you have liked people to communicate after 3 days of radio silence about a time sensitive event from the only person who could provide an update?
posted by bowbeacon at 8:06 AM on November 1 [4 favorites]

This has been going on for years. The last BIPOC meeting notes were posted for the January 2024 meeting. Was that the last meeting? Why haven’t the meeting notes been posted since? What about that Trans/NB survey when the ‘community’ was asked what questions should be on a survey and then there was a survey and then…what?

The staff has to know that MetaTalk is a shit way to crowdsource this stuff and by now I’m assuming it’s either intentional to gum up the works or there’s no better solution on the horizon and they know the ‘community’ would lose their minds if there was radio silence so it’s better to have shit than nothing.

There’s probably not enough hours or pay for this side job to do everything the ‘community’ demands. My unsolicited thought remains the same: do what you say you’re going to do, when you say you’re going to do it. Transparency doesn’t mean saying yes to everything and then half- or quarter-assing the process. Do you want to sit in a committee, take / transcribe / post notes? Cool, do that. Plan a fundraiser with a bunch of different events? Cool, do that. Be the only mod that responds to MetaTalk comments? Cool, do that.

Can’t / won’t / shouldn’t do some of that? Cool, don’t.

(Most) people don’t want committees and fundraisers and rules discussions and etc etc just to have those things. They feel like it’s their way of saving the site. Does the staff want to facilitate those efforts? Cool, do that. Is it not in the budget to pay a person two hours a week to do that? Then don’t do that.
posted by Diskeater at 8:34 AM on November 1 [11 favorites]

Hold elections for volunteer mods and admins.

I'm not familiar with US labour law, but in jurisdictions I'm familiar with, even if (big if) volunteers are permitted in a for-profit workplace, if they are performing the same job duties paid staff are doing, they are considered employees (and could sue for wages.) So basically, to have volunteer mods here, at the least the mods would have to be given other job titles and duties. (And honestly that would be questionable if a former mod wanted to pursue it.)

If you remember, there were some of us doing volunteer work (and some has been done since like the PR work around the anniversary) but some of the roles grew and when the steering committee posted what sounded like fairly extensive job descriptions around the next round of elections, people asked if that was legal and Jessamyn (quite rightly I'm sure) ascertained that there was a legal risk to the organization, so that got shut down. The PR work is pretty obviously something that doesn't require scheduling and isn't in anyone's job description.

Reddit gets away with it because:
- they provide space/tools for people to create subreddits on a voluntary basis, so they are providing a service to the mods, not demanding work
- they don't have paid mods in any capacity

(I will say most small businesses do have help in some way - some friend writes a marketing plan or picks up a delivery, a cousin covers a shift in exchange for dinner because everyone was sick that day. This is one of those things that works until you go over an invisible line.)
posted by warriorqueen at 8:35 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]

My shift hasn't started yet but I'll chime in and address a few things:

– Yesterday, we learned that the Pet Tax Wall is not yet done, and printing and shipping are taking up a significant amount of effort. Ehm, none of that is true. As I said yesterday, the Pet tax wall is ready. The only thing left is to do is to sign up for a printing and shipping service (Printful, RedBubble, etc.). I think the reason this didn't happen yesterday is clear, my entire shift yesterday was spent on this thread, moderation and internal communications.

– The issues warriorqueen mentions above are real. I have a list of recommendations to work around those issues (this is not my first time working through the transition to a non-profit) for the IB and I think it is key to start operating in a way that allows members to help and get involved and that is the reasons why we have been setting aside $600/month for Member contributions since July, unfortunately, none of it has been used to this day.

– Regarding the BIPOC board minutes, I just want to reiterate that I have zero control over that, I can only make recommendations as the Board is an autonomous and self-governing entity.

– Both the thread I decided to close saying “we need to come back to this but this will have to wait” and the Trans/NB Initiative are things I genuinely want to come back to, and things I, personally, care about. If it hasn't happened in the past months is really because of the bandwidth issue.
posted by loup (staff) at 9:54 AM on November 1

Sorry, I was confused by the fact that the Pet Tax wall had kept you silent for four days last month, and still wasn't available. I assumed that meant you had been spending a lot of effort on it and it wasn't yet done, but clearly I was mistaken.
posted by bowbeacon at 9:59 AM on November 1 [3 favorites]

Or, ya know, what she said in 2021 about how the users have been trying to provide suggestions about and support for needed changes for many many many many many years, and generally getting ignored.

That link seems dead, have contacted the original member to see if they have access. That's from 3 years ago, so not sure how is relevant now, but it's a starting point.

Here's a Google doc I made, titled "MetaFilter suggestions from the community", currently shareable only
by other MeFi staff members. But I'll be on duty for a little bit more today, then almost all day Saturday, so will check back and add stuff. That way there's a of public document about the community is asking for.

Also worth noting that the site does have funding for paying people for small jobs. But I can't remember where that link/information is. I've been going back through site updates, but haven't found it yet (anyone remember?). Which is a site problem I have a thought on further down*.

But going forward, it might be a good idea to break tasks down into smaller steps so we can ask people for an hour of their time and they'd get X money. That way the load is shared and the community can get involved in things and small tasks can be done.

* Going back through the various site updates has reminded me that a lot of stuff has been done, but it's hard to find all that information as it's just bunched together in site updates. For instance, there's usually some sort of tech update in a site update, but it's hard to see an overall picture because that information is so spread out. I think it would be a good idea to have separate pages for site updates, and board updates, etc, etc. That way it's easier to access component information to get a better grasp of the overall whole.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 10:14 AM on November 1 [1 favorite]

So what’s actually been done with the pet wall thing? Someone put a group of photos into a template? That’s literally ten minutes of work. Are we able to get an estimate of paid staff time that’s been devoted to this, because nothing I’ve heard about the whole plan has made any sense to me (and I know I’m not the only one), especially as a “fundraiser”.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 10:15 AM on November 1 [2 favorites]

I was listing some stuff that has seemingly fallen through the cracks as examples of things you said you were going to do instead of just saying "there's a ton of stuff you said you were going to do that has seemingly fallen through the cracks."
posted by Diskeater at 10:46 AM on November 1 [4 favorites]

I think it would be a good idea to have separate pages for site updates, and board updates, etc, etc.

Again, this is a great idea in theory but who will maintain and update this?

If the answer is loup, they have already established over many years, and said specifically here, that the act of writing, drafting, and posting is a difficult and laborious process that takes an entire day or more, causes stress, and fills them with anxiety. I don't think adding this kind of task to loup's to-do list would make their life better, and I don't think this would ultimately be an effort in service to the community (taking focus away from action to continue to document process), no matter how well intentioned.

If it can be maintained by another member of the mod team, bless.
posted by phunniemee at 11:29 AM on November 1 [6 favorites]

"Yesterday, we learned that the Pet Tax Wall is not yet done, and printing and shipping are taking up a significant amount of effort. Ehm, none of that is true. As I said yesterday, the Pet tax wall is ready. The only thing left is to do is to sign up for a printing and shipping service (Printful, RedBubble, etc.). I think the reason this didn't happen yesterday is clear, my entire shift yesterday was spent on this thread, moderation and internal communications."


So in summary ... it's not done and printing and shipping are taking a significant amount of effort.
Good talk.
posted by bowmaniac at 11:44 AM on November 1 [4 favorites]

That comment was from the 29th, no?
posted by bowbeacon at 12:02 PM on November 1 [3 favorites]

Yes, the comment itself was from the 29th, the flags came in yesterday. Mod note adjusted for clarity.
posted by loup (staff) at 12:26 PM on November 1

How are you spending your entire shift allegedly moderating this thread but you don’t see comments unless they’re flagged?

That’s a rhetorical question. I think the answer is the same as why you have so much experience managing projects and shepherding nonprofit transitions yet projects are not getting managed and the transition to a nonprofit seems completely dead in the water.
posted by knobknosher at 12:44 PM on November 1 [5 favorites]

But because we’re looking for concrete suggestions here, I will say that if you want people to do work, you need to actually make it clear what work you want them to do. If you want them to volunteer to help with fundraising, you need to actively do something to let them know you’re looking for that help. You need to do it before the fundraiser, not as a vague aside in a random post about the fundraiser that’s difficult for even Brandon to find. Maybe these issues, like staffing or planning ahead, don’t pop up in multi million dollar projects. If so, terribly sorry we’re so beneath you in that sense but hopefully this explanation will help.
posted by knobknosher at 12:46 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]

What is the point of crowdsourcing more ideas for improvement if there isn't anyone available to do the discrete tasks necessary for day to day moderation and communication?
posted by CtrlAltD at 12:53 PM on November 1 [7 favorites]

It really is concerning that presumably all of the working mods have known about that comment for multiple days, but it took a flag to delete it. I understand the community-feedback utility of flags, but if the mods aren’t able to actively utilize good judgment in most cases I can only conclude they’re not actually doing the job they’re ostensibly here for.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 12:54 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]

There are some comments above misreading my words in this thread in ways that I don't know if they are intentional or not, I'm happy to clarify specifics one-on-one via email if that helps but the "light moderation on MataTalk" stance has clearly not worked in the past months and, as I mentioned above, the risk that a mod note or deletion will derail the entire thread itself is real and we can't systematically do that.

Again, this is a great idea in theory but who will maintain and update this?

This is actually something easy to maintain for anyone (yup, even me) with the proper guardrails. The main reason why project road maps, adjustments in timelines, and clear and effective communication are useful and achievable in a real project environment is because of those guardrails.

If you want people to do work, you need to actually make it clear what work you want them to do.

The thing is, I don't "want people to do work". We. are looking for ways to allow members to impact MeFi and drive initiatives they would like to see. This budget was allocated to make room for member contributions over 3 months ago. Back then it was intentionally open ended because it was a step towards the community-driven model and a way to finally allow people to contribute in the ways they have been interested in helping. Then in august I explicitly said we'd like to use it for contributions towards this year’s fundraising and I've been mentioning the member contribution budget in every site update since then. So far it hasn't been used but I have a list of people who have offered specific help with the new site and will reach to them when we are ready and I am in conversations with a few members who have expressed interest in driving specific side projects that hold a lot of value.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:31 PM on November 1

loup, do you know about the Jobs sub-site? I’m not trying to snark, htg, I just know that you don’t really participate in the site from a user-perspective and figured you might not know.

If Metafilter needs help and y’all have money to pay for that, you have to tell us. Expecting to have a kitty of petty cash that members can dip into whenever they have a great idea to help the site out is, with all due respect, a less than sane way to deal with MeFi’s pressing needs.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 1:37 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]

That's exactly what we have done in the past. When it comes to the contribution budget, again, this budget was specifically and intentionally open ended exactly because one of the pressing needs we need to move away from is the status quo where a sizable amount of members have been reasonably frustrated over the years because they have great ideas and initiatives to help the site but are simply told "no". I get the suggestion that it should be put to use in specific ways and that we need to ask for that openly, and yes that's a great idea that we can implement but I hope you do see the difference between that suggestion and what you are saying.
posted by loup (staff) at 1:48 PM on November 1

Oh, I get it. The most pressing needs we have are the ones we don’t know we have yet. Makes perfect sense.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 1:55 PM on November 1 [3 favorites]

1. What is the process for applying for payment for member contributions?
2. How is it decided what gets funded?
posted by lapis at 2:44 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]

1. What is the process for applying for payment for member contributions?
Contact us!
2. How is it decided what gets funded?
Depends on what the proposal is, it will certainly go through Jessamyn and myself. But, for example, if its something tech related we'll consult with frimble and kirkaracha as well.
posted by loup (staff) at 2:55 PM on November 1

Loup: "the Pet tax wall is ready. The only thing left is to do is to sign up for a printing and shipping service (Printful, RedBubble, etc.)."

bowmaniac: "So in summary ... it's not done and printing and shipping are taking a significant amount of effort."

I don't think that follows. I have to make reservations for a restaurant for a get-together with friends on Sunday. I haven't done it yet, but that doesn't mean that making reservations takes a significant amount of effort. It's actually super easy. I just haven't done it.
posted by Bugbread at 3:03 PM on November 1

Okay, made the restaurant reservation. Thanks for getting me off my butt.
posted by Bugbread at 3:11 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]

Have users even ordered these “walls”? How many are we printing? Where are they being shipped? Was there a post about this somewhere that everyone missed? It seems like it’s only been in the last 24 hours that anyone understands that this is no longer about an edition of one being auctioned off.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 3:12 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]

Talking ironically about another member's emotional stability is rude, cruel and definitely goes against our Guidelines.

Tbh, “rude, cruel and definitely goes against our Guidelines” is nearly as harsh and judgmental as the comment you deleted. It would be nice to see moderation do their job without harping on the cruelty of site members.

There are some comments above misreading my words in this thread in ways that I don't know if they are intentional or not, I'm happy to clarify specifics one-on-one via email if that helps but the "light moderation on MataTalk" stance has clearly not worked in the past months and, as I mentioned above, the risk that a mod note or deletion will derail the entire thread itself is real and we can't systematically do that.

loup, hoping to clarify this one publicly since it affects everyone: am I reading this correctly to mean that you’re unwilling to clarify comments you think are being misread in this thread because you’re afraid it will cause some drama that will derail the thread? If so, that’s a really bad dynamic and I personally don’t think you should be moderating anything until you’ve got that sorted out. If this isn’t what you meant, I fail to see the connection between you being misunderstood and the “riskiness” of a mod note.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 3:23 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]

Oh, my apologies, I can see how you would interpret it that way. My intention was to extend an offer to you, or anyone in this thread to talk to me directly, there are conversations that benefit from the fluidity and undivided attention of a one-on-one setting and that aren't necessarily the best use of this, or any public thread.
posted by loup (staff) at 3:34 PM on November 1

There are still several questions for you that remain unanswered, and I’m interested in the answers to them regardless of whether I was the one to ask them. I’m not alone in that. You could have a bunch of private conversations with site users (most of who will be confused about the ever evolving “guidelines” about private site communications), and then maybe expect people to share their findings amongst themselves, or you could just dedicate a shift to posting an AMA and then actually engage with it.

I’m sure you have your reasons for wanting to do things privately, and it’s your call, but this community member thinks it’s a bad call and is skeptical of your motivations for making it.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 3:44 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]

I'm sorry to hear that. Every time I've talked to a member "face to face" I've found it to be enlightening and productive for both parties.
posted by loup (staff) at 3:59 PM on November 1

And in turn, I’m sorry you feel that way. I’ve seen this divide and conquer gambit before, and while I’m unsurprised to see it again I must say that I find it disappointing.
posted by not just everyday big moggies at 4:05 PM on November 1

I don't know if the brief exchange we had before my meta got posted counts but I don't recall receiving a user experience survey.

Please correct me, but I think what moggies is meaning is that multiple people have similar questions (here, elsewhere in Metafilter, in life, etc), and answering public questions openly and in public seems like a much more efficient and effective way to address it than making everybody come to you one on one. I work in a capacity where I have hundreds of employees who come to me for answers on general company things. I don't have the bandwidth to address each person individually, and I say that as a person who has zero time management difficulties. I know what I would choose as the simplest path forward for myself.
posted by phunniemee at 4:12 PM on November 1 [2 favorites]

Every time I've talked to a member "face to face" I've found it to be enlightening and productive for both parties.

OK, but there are about 2500 active members of the site. Talking with people one-on-one, no matter how great you are at it, is not a viable strategy for communicating with this site's membership.

Would it help for someone else to act as a go-between? Like we appoint someone as a community rep and they gather up questions and concerns from folks and then have a face-to-face chat with you once a month, and write a post about it?
posted by automatronic at 4:16 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]

Naw, pretty sure it’s the users who are wrong. I’m a member of like two or three communities that spun off from this one, have zero or extremely limited moderation, and are much more active per person than this site. Probably 75% of these easy to moderate people ditched the site because of some combination of disrespectful or outright hostile modding and/or feeling frustrated or angry at mismanagement of donated resources. But hey, fuck ‘em. As Thomas Jefferson famously said, better to pay one person to do fuck all than to keep a hundred engaged, committed people involved in the community they helped build.

To be fair, this shit started way before loup, but to paraphrase Mitch Hedberg, this site’s management used to suck. It still sucks, too.
posted by knobknosher at 4:31 PM on November 1 [4 favorites]

I love watching this thread get memory-holed in real time.
posted by hototogisu at 5:09 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]

phunniemee, but I can't see how that analogy is the same here. I mean, was that meta more efficient and effective? Than what?

OK, but there are about 2500 active members of the site. Talking with people one-on-one, no matter how great you are at it, is not a viable strategy for communicating with this site's membership.

I totally agree, and it is no scalable in any way. But I don't think this is something everyone needs or is even asking for, is just something that any of you as members can do anytime if you want to.

Would it help for someone else to act as a go-between?
I kind of wonder the same.

knobknosher
I don't disagree with you on many levels, and I think that most of that can be solved by structural changes, and the sooner they happen the better.

I love watching this thread get memory-holed in real time.
No, just two comments deleted for answering to the deletion note itself.
posted by loup (staff) at 5:13 PM on November 1

Would an appropriate use of those funds potentially include a community member providing staff a summary of previously expressed concerns and goals going forward?

My professional background is in analyzing and summarizing community feedback for organizations to improve their services (particularly as it regards marginalized groups). I have some extra time right now and could work on a project like that with appropriate compensation, but I’d prefer a quick “yes, this could be feasible” before writing up a whole proposal about it.

(I would also be interested in working on the trans survey, btw, as survey research and particularly LGBTQ-focused climate type stuff is my whole jam—but given that there are broader issues which also affect me as a trans user, I would prefer to tackle those first before drilling down to trans-specific problems.)
posted by brook horse at 5:13 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]

Yes, actually. The community has made it clear that you need to put the brakes on.
posted by hototogisu at 5:14 PM on November 1

brook horse, of course! Please contact us!
posted by loup (staff) at 5:16 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]

not just everyday big moggies: "Was there a post about this somewhere that everyone missed? It seems like it’s only been in the last 24 hours that anyone understands that this is no longer about an edition of one being auctioned off."

Back in the September 18th update, it says "Then, we’ll put copies of the Pet Tax wall and Cookbook for sale and proceed with the Podcast."
posted by Bugbread at 5:25 PM on November 1

phunniemee, but I can't see how that analogy is the same here. I mean, was that meta more efficient and effective? Than what?

The thrust of requesting my meta be public, as I very clearly stated in our enlightening and productive 1:1 email exchange, was to hold moderation accountable for their actions. Having your private assurance in secret that mods will always leave a note in the future doesn't achieve that.
posted by phunniemee at 5:29 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]

Also, quite specifically, I was annoyed in particular that a content warning was made so frivolously and added to my comment like it was my words. I think content warnings/trigger warnings are important, serious, and should be used when appropriate so that they maintain real value. It cheapens a content warning to slap one on a goofy still frame of a melt nazi from a 40 year old PG movie. Like the freakin prop 65 warning of the internet. I don't want to be used to further the dilution of content warnings, and yeah maybe I had a snit about letting everyone who read that edited comment think I had personally thrown it in there like content warnings are a joke.
posted by phunniemee at 5:36 PM on November 1 [3 favorites]

Could that have been achieved by me putting it in writing somewhere publicly accessible? Or, I mean, there are many practical ways to achieve that, I'm not looking to give anyone private assurance of anything. I think your concern was easier to address privately.
posted by loup (staff) at 5:37 PM on November 1

Silenced all my life.
posted by phunniemee at 5:39 PM on November 1 [1 favorite]

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