Yeah, I’m certainly a bit annoyed. Have been exploring LibreWolf and Waterfox as alternatives that 1. Are not Firefox and 2. Are not just a wrap around google Chrome engine (read edge, opera, brave, Vivaldi, almost everything except for safari, which is a whole other can of worms)
posted by _benj at 7:34 AM on February 28 [4 favorites]

I kicked the tires on LibreWolf last night but I didn't like that the binary wasn't signed on macOS and some of the privacy stuff they say they do sounds more inconvenient than I really want to deal with.

I'm writing this from Waterfox now and it seems virtually indistinguishable from Firefox, but faster, so I'm going to try and roll with this for a while and see if anything breaks. (YMMV on "faster," I suspect a large part of that for me could be about finally walking away from a 10+ year old Firefox profile)
posted by jordemort at 7:42 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

Has not Mozilla been struggling financially for years? I could see the board (or whatever their structure is) thinking this could give them some wiggle room to keep the organization from going under.

But I'm just speculating here. I know people who worked for Mozilla and they are all true believers of the mission of an alternative, private browser. Some of them have unfortunately been let go over budgets (data point)
posted by keep_evolving at 7:50 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

I loved that Firefox announced they would continue supporting Manifest V2 in addition to V3, meaning uBlock Origin would continue to work. Then this came out on the heels of Microsoft following Google and removing V2 from Edge.

So I'm trying Vivaldi for the things I use Edge for and LibreWolf and Waterfox for everything else. Vivaldi seems fine, if a bit "busy". It's just a stopgap measure since they can't put off V3 forever. Both LibreWolf and Waterfox can import directly from Chrome browsers but can't from Firefox, necessitating a manual copy from Firefox. Not a total deal breaker but certainly annoying.

What we need is a truly open browser engine alternative (sorry, Safari, but you're not it).
posted by tommasz at 7:58 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

During a typical workday, an older customer will call in and ask for help verifying their identity for Login.gov. When I tell them to begin by opening their web browser, they will say “What is a web browser?”

Just to put this development in a larger perspective.
posted by Lemkin at 8:06 AM on February 28 [17 favorites]

I’ve been working on what to recommend to my family once Firefox goes all-in on “we train using your data” AI and my current path forward is Arc. They don’t care about the browser engine underneath the hood, but it’s important to me to find something that isn’t outright disrespecting them. I don’t think this terms update alone will be what tips the scales, but I dread what’s coming next.
posted by Callisto Prime at 8:09 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

What is a web browser?”

That sort of thing goes back at least as far as AOL being the Internet.
posted by Mitheral at 8:12 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

What we need is a truly open browser engine alternative (sorry, Safari, but you're not it).

Does Chromium count? This is a real question, I don't know the answer to this.

Vivaldi, which is what I use, is Chromium-based. I know I don't have the Google proprietary stuff that you get with Chrome, which does include some tracking, but is the Chromium base itself okay?
posted by mcstayinskool at 8:16 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

Oh, also, Mozilla’s actual post about these changes went up two days ago.
posted by Callisto Prime at 8:17 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

That sort of thing goes back at least as far as AOL being the Internet

That was a quarter of a century ago. I can understand people not knowing how to use them, but I do not understand their not knowing what they are.

It’s increasingly the equivalent of not just being unable to drive, but not knowing what a car is.
posted by Lemkin at 8:17 AM on February 28 [6 favorites]

You don't have to know how a car works, but "What is a steering wheel?" is not an acceptable level of knowledge.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:20 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]

And the extremely detailed and plain-language “how exactly we use data we collect”. None of this is a defense — I’m just noting these so that the discussion isn’t exclusively supported by second-hand information from a news article.
posted by Callisto Prime at 8:21 AM on February 28 [6 favorites]

At least Debian ships the GNU IceCat fork, along with Chromium.

IceCat removes now removes EME and other bullshit. Tor browser removes less bullshit, but quite good. Brave maybe fine, not sure.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:25 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

> is not an acceptable level of knowledge

Most people don’t know what a folder is anymore, in the context of a filesystem on their devices.

Most people don’t know that browsers have different ‘engines’ that all produce the same result on their screen.

This is not a conscious effort on their part to be ignorant. Please consider using a more precise condemnation that targets whatever you feel is responsible for that ignorance. I can think a few good interlocking reasons that deserve to be targeted but I don’t presume to know what you meant in detail.
posted by Callisto Prime at 8:27 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

A bit more detail: Knowing how to write a simple shell script is as much a part of basic literacy as knowing how to write a 5 paragraph essay, and should be part of the core school curriculum.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:32 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

Presumably - everyone who clicked on and is interested in this post knows what a Browser is, and - at least vaguely - what it does.

Can we focus on those people please?

This particular derail doesn't seem helpful to those currently looking for Firefox alternatives, or who want to know how the Firefox TOS changes might affect them. Thank you
posted by Faintdreams at 8:34 AM on February 28 [18 favorites]

Knowing how to write a simple shell script is as much a part of basic literacy as knowing how to write a 5 paragraph essay

It... is not. I say that as someone who knows how to write shell scripts. For the vast majority of people to exist and function (highly!) in the world, knowing how to cobble together a Bash script is not even remotely required.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:35 AM on February 28 [31 favorites]

FFS Mozilla, this isn't the time.

Has not Mozilla been struggling financially for years?

Which is why I, a full-time Firefox (and Thunderbird) user on multiple platforms, have seen so many big fundraising campaigns on the Mozilla Foundation's part... (I haven't.)

I know Mozilla has been making various (not great) decisions for years based on funding needs, but it's not clear what alternatives they've considered, and also whether all that funding is truly needed. (Personally I could do without a lot of the newer "features" and would be happy if the development budget were pared down such that security maintenance, web standards compliance, and general maintenance of the existing codebase were almost the entirety of the work being done.)
posted by trig at 8:35 AM on February 28 [6 favorites]

Pish! What are these "Folders" you speak of? My computer has Directories!
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:35 AM on February 28 [5 favorites]

I ‘ve found, in onboarding new hires to my company, across a wide range of backgrounds, age cohorts, and job titles, that a lot of people don’t know:
-what a web browser is
-what a web page is
-the difference between entering a URL into the address bar and entering a search and clicking on the first result

I’d liken it more to driving a car but not knowing what shifting gears is.
posted by Jon_Evil at 8:40 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

How did this become a thread on tech illiteracy
posted by trig at 8:41 AM on February 28 [9 favorites]

Metafilter still works perfectly on Lynx . ..
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:47 AM on February 28 [8 favorites]

> How did this become a thread on tech illiteracy

What alternatives to Firefox can I recommend to my family, the tech illiterate, given several non-Firefox options with a more solid base of development support? What alternatives am I willing to use myself in order to provide support for them?

The article’s author asked us to consider Firefox alternatives and that’s very much what I’ve been doing — but I don’t do so in a void for myself, the 0.001% tech literate. I already can’t stand Firefox simply for how much latency it has, and the health of the “derived” ecosystem hinges on the future of Mozilla Corporation — not Mozilla Foundation.

So, I think that tech illiteracy is a direct and pressing driver in the search for a post-Firefox selection, because I’m not just consuming the web for myself; a lot of people trust my judgment and I’ll owe them one soon enough.
posted by Callisto Prime at 8:50 AM on February 28 [5 favorites]

When I tell them to begin by opening their web browser, they will say “What is a web browser?”

But is that really reflective of most Firefox users? I know many people who simple do not care what browser they are using -- and as trig just hinted at: maybe we'd do good to not judge a wide array of folks for that? -- but as Firefox isn't a default browser (anywhere? please correct me if there are exceptions), many people must have chosen to install it, and had reasons for doing so.

In my case that mostly boils down to "because it isn't Chrome/Google" and I am not sure whether focusing on folks who do not care to make that distinction in the first place is such a productive path to take this thread on?
posted by bigendian at 8:51 AM on February 28

I switched (back) to Firefox directly as a result of Chrome deprecating Manifest v2. Whatever answer we get, it has to be one that's not based on Chromium.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 8:57 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

i just got an email this morning from Mozilla begging for money
posted by glonous keming at 9:03 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]

Longtime FF user, not convinced I have to jump ship right this week but am concerned I may soon.

Question re: Water Fox/Ice Cat/Liquid Wolf: can any of these import my FF profile information? Saved passwords are most important but bookmarks and history and other stuff would be nice too.
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:04 AM on February 28 [4 favorites]

i just got an email this morning from Mozilla begging for money

Tell them information wants to be free.
posted by Lemkin at 9:05 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]

I look forward to the announcement that Mozilla has moved thier headquarters to a rake factory.

(But Firefox is still a better choice than anything built around Chrome, I think.)
posted by surlyben at 9:07 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

My sense is that overall the reaction to this is an overreaction to what actually has changed, so far. Firefox is still basically the best browser to use unless you demand the restrictions put upon you by some of the privacy-focused forks (so very few people). It really sucks that Mozilla hasn't had a really good leader for awhile. I still think Mozilla made the correct choice by pushing Brendan Eich out when they did. And given how much cryptocurrency stuff is now in Brave, I think if Eich had stayed at Mozilla, Firefox likely would be much worse on that aspect now.

I feel like Mozilla is stuck in the spot where people expect them to be "better" and so are more critical of their every slip-up, even if they stay better than the fray. Google/Android has declined a lot more recently, but it's similar to how Android got into trouble with antitrust more than iPhone, arguably, because Google had kept more of Android open.

The Mozilla Cycle, Part I is another decent blog post about the changes and ends with

So, is this Mozilla "going evil?" Nah, prolly not. But it is at best clumsy, and a poor showing if they want me to believe they care about Firefox, rather than the data it can provide

Really one of my fears is that they see this as some sort of stepping stone to help them something something with generative AI, but alas, not much else to go to, really.

So I'll be staying on Firefox for now as my primary browser. Not that I'm really happy with the continuing bumbling around by Mozilla (I've used it since the Phoenix days, and Mozilla and Netscape before that; I switched to Chrome as my default for a few years awhile back but came back to Firefox when it got better than Chrome for now I use it).
posted by skynxnex at 9:08 AM on February 28 [7 favorites]

This confirmed Firefox user is NOT furious. What's it all about? Haven't read anything oh so terrible yet. Data sharing? Yeah, so what, the companies are all doing that; be naïve not to. How about that latest data breach? Nothing I can do about that, either.
posted by Rash at 9:08 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

Nothing I can do about that, either.

I think that's part of the problem - there need to be alternatives. Mozilla used to be an org you could count on to be a real alternative.
posted by trig at 9:11 AM on February 28 [5 favorites]

Ok, viewing and commenting now from lynx. Been forever, don't think I've ever used it for this site. It's fun! Very clunky, but fun. Was a bit confusing to log in, and had to look up my password in Firefox. Alright I can use lynx for MeFi sites so... problem 25% solved?
posted by SaltySalticid at 9:15 AM on February 28 [4 favorites]

I have felt like Google has been propping Mozilla and DuckDuckGo to avoid looking like a monopoly.

Since, that does not look like a problem for Google for the foreseeable future.

I would not be surprised if Google and other companies start dropping their deals with Mozilla. Mozilla is probably try to get ahead of this and find some other revenue streams. *sigh*
posted by KaizenSoze at 9:22 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

Of the alternatives listed here, can anyone comment on the functionality of bitwarden on them? I'm not terribly worried about exporting my whole firefox profile, but I do want to be able to access my logins via my password manager.
posted by solotoro at 9:23 AM on February 28

Verso wants to build a browser based upon Servo. Yay!
posted by jeffburdges at 9:26 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

If you look at the before-and-after TOS, it's extremely troubling. Firefox literally removed the sentence "Unlike other companies, we don’t sell access to your data." from the middle of a paragraph, while leaving the rest of the paragraph intact.

This is really bad.

I see that now they are getting flak about it, they are trying to appease users with blog posts talking about how they mean well. But the blog posts aren't legally binding; the TOS are. If they don't intend to sell my data, why not simply put the excised sentence back into the TOS?

This isn't good. And I say this with grief as someone who uses and loves Firefox.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:28 AM on February 28 [12 favorites]

Former Mozilla employee here — stupid shit happens at every company and Mozilla has their own blind spots that they keep crashing into.

I stopped using Firefox a while ago not out of any kind of dislike of my former employer but because I live in a complete Apple ecosystem and Safari “just works” in that situation.

I would not recommend any Firefox forks as they will be missing functionality you expect and will have security holes. Building and maintaining a cross-platform browser takes millions of dollars. I have seen the infrastructure required.

In my opinion Google Chrome has won the desktop web browser war and 99% of my web browsing is mobile these days so Safari + Mobile Safari is my choice of tools.
posted by grmpyprogrammer at 9:30 AM on February 28 [8 favorites]

This seems like its going to be a hot-button topic for a certain type of metafilter user, but the problem is that its 2025, not 2005. User data has been deemed “valuable”, and mozilla not making steps to access it goes against the general flow of society. Not making steps to access that data means that the people who run the corp side of mozilla could be removed by shareholder activists.

It is unrealistic to say the least, in 2025, to expect that your data is not being repackaged and sold. You might not like it, you might have different expectations, but sadly this is the standard now.
posted by The River Ivel at 9:34 AM on February 28

I switched from Chrome to Opera on Linux, but the audio stopped working for some bizarre reason, then I went to Firefox on Linux but then it performed like a dog, then I switched to Edge on Linux (because that was an entertaining surprise to discover and it worked just like my work Windows machine), then I switched back to Firefox when Edge bought in its Bing/AI BS and now I'm contemplating alternatives again.

Practising defensive computing is exhausting.
posted by phigmov at 9:54 AM on February 28 [5 favorites]

but then it performed like a dog

I fail to see a problem here
posted by ginger.beef at 10:00 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I’m certainly a bit annoyed.
posted by _benj
Mozilla’s actual post about these changes went up two days ago.

Dammit, I had been using fkin' edge, which totaly puts the suck in suckhole. The hospital's My Chart and video calling only use that, or chrome, but edge just keeps adding more and more crap and continually reverts to sucking bing as the search engine, as well as annoying me all the time about changing to chrome.

I finally dumped edge and configured Firefox the way I want it JUST THREE DAYS AGO!!! Is there nothing about the internet that doesn't involve some rich fucker finding a way to screw people over?

It is unrealistic to say the least, in 2025, to expect that your data is not being repackaged and sold.

Once upon a time there was a shining dream that information would be free and the internet would benefit society...
Now I guess we just shrug and bend over and enjoy having everybody and his dog using our data to manipulate us--banks denying us loans and insurance denying us care.

Knowing how to write a simple shell script is as much a part of basic literacy...
I don't know how to write a shell script. Is it hard? Is it worth it? I'm 71. I don't want to be computer/phone illiterate, but I don't want to have to learn programing either.

When I left school I learned how to write pretty good 5 para essays, and I can't see that most kids today know how to write essays OR shell script. I don't know how to repair my automatic transmission, either. I just want to get in and drive my car and go somewhere. For some naive reason I expect the auto manufacture and my mechanic to make it safe and easy to operate my vehicle. I can drive a stick shift, and I liken that more to being able to use my file manger than to writing script. There are levels and levels of computer literacy.
posted by BlueHorse at 10:03 AM on February 28 [4 favorites]

> Not making steps to access that data means that the people who run the corp side of mozilla could be removed by shareholder activists.

What shareholders? Mozilla Corp which pays the Firefox developers and collects that sweet Google $$ (almost 90% of revenue) is a wholly owned subsidiary of Mozilla Foundation which has a board of directors, but no shareholders.
posted by ASCII Costanza head at 10:06 AM on February 28 [4 favorites]

I would not recommend any Firefox forks as they will be missing functionality you expect and will have security holes.

Waterfox is based on Firefox ESR so they are dependent on Firefox for core functionality and security patches. This is both good and bad, they will at least get patched (though some time after Firefox current) but if Firefox dies then so will Waterfox.
posted by Lanark at 10:08 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

Waterfox is based on Firefox ESR so they are dependent on Firefox for core functionality and security patches.

Waterfox isn't just "based on" Firefox ESR. For a long time Waterfox was literally just Firefox with a search and replace for Fire -> Water run against the codebase. It has since been bought by an advertising company.

What alternatives to Firefox can I recommend to my family, the tech illiterate, given several non-Firefox options with a more solid base of development support?

With the caveat that I used to work for Mozilla: right now, the answer to that, however I feel about it, is "Firefox with automatic updates turned on and uBlock Origin installed and turned all the way up."
posted by mhoye at 10:21 AM on February 28 [5 favorites]

I know Mozilla has been making various (not great) decisions for years based on funding needs, but it's not clear what alternatives they've considered, and also whether all that funding is truly needed.

These are the people who recently ended a VR Chat feature called Hubs. I used it maybe once (it had video sharing and I try to keep informed about alternatives we could use for MST Club). It was okay.

Hubs was started, I think, during the short-lived tech frenzy around Meta's Metaverse. I wonder how much money they had sunk into that, and other forms of hype-chasing?
posted by JHarris at 10:26 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

It has since been bought by an advertising company.

I too see this as pretty damning. But Mozilla, on its part, has bought an advertising company.

(I know, I know, it's a privacy-oriented ad company, sure. But the slippery slope in this specific regard is not a hypothetical concern; it's a well-trod path at this point.)
posted by trig at 10:29 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

It is unrealistic to say the least, in 2025, to expect that your data is not being repackaged and sold. You might not like it, you might have different expectations, but sadly this is the standard now.

lol no
posted by JHarris at 10:31 AM on February 28 [5 favorites]

edge just keeps adding more and more crap and continually reverts to sucking bing as the search engine

TIL that people use the search functionality of their browsers rather than just going to a search webpage.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:48 AM on February 28

Some follow up from Mozilla via techcrunch.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 11:05 AM on February 28

To be clear, you can still currently opt out of any/all of this data collection right? It's not the case that anyone thinks Firefox is lying about what it says it's collecting right?
In my Settings panel I see these options:

*Allow Firefox to send technical and interaction data to Mozilla
Learn more
*Allow Firefox to make personalized extension recommendations
Learn more
*Allow Firefox to install and run studies
View Firefox studies
*Allow Firefox to send backlogged crash reports on your behalf
Learn more

I had most of them checked up until now because I believed them when they said they weren't selling it. At first I was thinking about un-checking them all. But then I read about how they say they will only pass on data that has been stripped of personally identifying information and aggregated. And then I also thought about how I do want FF to keep existing...

Then I also think about how I've signed up for various science experiments over the years. And of course they are collecting my personal data and profiting from it in some sense. But if I believe them that it's stripped of PII and aggregated etc, and I think their mission is good, then it's fine. And they even often end up passing that data on to be used by other groups for other analyses. And that's still fine.

And now I'm thinking maybe I should just turn these back on, as an easy way to support FF/Mozilla and keep them going without actually donating dollars to them. Personally I'd rather pay them for this nice product and not have them sell that data, but that doesn't seem to be on the table. It's 2025 and nobody is going to keep a modern multi-platform browser going by charging for the software.

Overall I guess I do still trust them, or at least trust that if they weren't doing what they say, the system is open enough that somebody would notice. As much as I like my browsing privacy and using open source tools etc, I also find it hard to come up with how my privacy is really being violated if they are responsibly stripping PII and aggregating. I suppose there's the argument that it further normalizes the kind of data selling that doesn't respect my privacy at all, but that still doesn't mean anything important has been taken from me personally. The key thing here is informed consent, and it does seem like they are trying to properly inform and get that consent, which is more than I can say for most of the other players.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:08 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

Isn't time for some enlightened Scandinavian government to start funding some libre software development because they recognize it as not only a common good, but also as critical infrastructure?
posted by talking leaf at 11:17 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]

I actually agree with mhoye that currently firefox with ublock origin (and noscript) is still probably the best option. ("With automatic updates turned on" is, of course, seriously problematic when updates bring both privacy and feature downgrades.)

However, this is because the alternatives are so bad. Not because Mozilla can still be fully trusted to put 'people before profits'.

I hope things don't get worse, but I dunno, Mozilla has been on this path for a while and 2025 is really not the time for ongoing deterioration of yet another once-trusted institution.


I wonder how much money they had sunk into that, and other forms of hype-chasing?

Well. Just off the "About us" dropdown on their front page :

• Mozilla Builders - "Builders helps developers create transformative open-source AI projects through collaborations, programming, and community." Check out the 18 projects currently listed.
• Mozilla Advertizing - "Powering the evolution of performance and privacy". "Mozilla is redefining digital advertising with privacy-first, high-performance solutions." Etc. "Advertise with Mozilla". "Reach valuable audiences in premium, privacy-first, brand-safe environments with Mozilla’s suite of ad solutions." Seems to be selling ad channels to "valuable audiences" on Firefox, MDN (the Mozilla Developer Network), Fakespot, and the Pocket Hits newsletter.
• Mozilla Ventures - "Investing in founders that push the internet – and the tech industry – in a better direction." 40 companies currently listed in their portfolio.
• Mozilla.ai - "Our emerging initiatives, Lumigator and Blueprints, empower developers at all experience levels to simplify AI integration, ensuring that AI serves as a force for good in every project." Note that AI companies and projects also figure prominently in Mozilla Builders and Mozilla Ventures.
• Mozilla Foundation, which includes a whole host of initiatives:
  • Data Futures Lab - "The Data Futures Lab is an experimental space for instigating new approaches to data stewardship challenges. It provides funding, scaffolding for collaboration, convening around emerging ideas, and a place to workshop approaches to data stewardship which give greater control and agency to people."
  • Responsible Computing Challenge - "The Challenge supports the conceptualization, development, and piloting of curricula that empowers students to think about the social and political context of computing."
  • Mozilla Festival 2025 - "The premier gathering for people working to build a better digital world."
  • Campaigns - "A healthy internet requires an active, global community. Mozilla’s advocacy work brings people together from around the world to educate and fight for privacy, inclusion, literacy, and all principles of a healthy internet."
  • Common Voice - "Common Voice is the most diverse open voice dataset in the world. Most voice datasets are owned by companies, which stifles innovation. They also under-represent almost every language in the world, as well as demographic communities. We want to change that by mobilising people everywhere to share their voice."
  • IRL Podcast - "Mozilla’s multi-award winning podcast is back! In Season 7, Bridget Todd meets tech builders who put people over profit in artificial intelligence."
  • Research Hub - "Analyzing and documenting internet health and trustworthy AI to help shape a human-centered internet." Browse 151 currently listed research projects.

This isn't even the full list of projects Mozilla's engaged in (I'm not even listing the more "core" software development stuff). I'm also not listing past projects that fizzled out (there was going to be a Mozilla OS for mobile devices, among other things.) The homepage lists "$33 million+ in grants supporting a more human-centered internet" and "200 fellows shaping technology in the public interest " and "6 million+ people" who have "joined the movement", whatever that means.

From the Strategy page: "A majority of Mozilla’s movement building work is focused on developing trustworthy AI."

tl;dr: The above activity list is not the activity list of a poor, cash-starved organization with no other option but to keep eating away at more and more of its users' privacy.

It seems like way past time to break up Mozilla into fully independent parts. We've already got enough software companies that are actually ad companies in disguise.
posted by trig at 11:17 AM on February 28 [3 favorites]

It has since been bought by an advertising company.

Waterfox cut its ties with System1 back in July 2023 and is now independent again.

A high level overview of what Waterfox offers vs Firefox via one of the devs on Hacker News:

* DNS over Oblivious HTTP to encrypt and anonymise DNS requests. Currently the only browser on the market to do so by default I believe? Just a note that we've partnered with Fastly for this and they control the "relay" node in the middle, for proper privacy sanitisation. More info: https://blog.cloudflare.com/oblivious-dns/
* In-depth configuration of numerous preferences within the Firefox codebase, striking a balance between privacy and web usability.
* Full support for JPEG-XL (including for animation, alpha, progressive decode, and colour profiles).
* Vertical tabs and sidebar support: https://www.waterfox.net/blog/waterfox-x-treestyletab/
* In-depth UI customisations. Currently working with black7375, on Lepton for customisations specific to Waterfox. You can view all the UI changes not available in Firefox but available in Waterfox at https://github.com/black7375/Firefox-UI-Fix/wiki/Options.
* "Classic" about:config available at about:cfg and "classic" password list at about:passwords

* Removal of all telemetry within the browser.
* Removal of all A/B testing within the browser.
* Removal of all unnecessary external connections (Google, Mozilla, Meta, etc.) where feasible.

Quality of life changes:

* Ability to disable auto-updates (not available in other forks)
* Integration with Ubuntu's Unity menu on Linux
* Ability to "restart" the browser in one click
* Ability to right-click "unload" tabs not in use
* Ability to "copy" tab URLs
* Ability to enable an old-school status bar—allows you to pin functions and addons to the bottom of the browser UI.
* Ability to disable Ctrl+W (or cmd+W) with a preference.
* Ability to play DRM content such as Netflix, Disney+, etc., not available in any other open source forks.

* Private Tabs (you don't need to open a new private window if you don't want; you can instead open a private tab).
* Ability to have tabs above address bar, below address bar, or at the bottom of the browser UI.
* Extensive changes to the about:preferences page, allowing changing of browser settings usually hidden.
* Technical support for Chrome and Opera extensions (this needs work!)
* Usage of a more privacy-centric search engine when in Private Window mode.

There's a bunch more, but still need to collate them more.

Oh and also no AI bullshit that siphons your data off to 3rd party providers. Doesn't mean I'm completely against it, but it has to be local only and performant IF it were to ever make its way to Waterfox.
posted by Lanark at 11:21 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]

Someone already mentioned that Waterfox is no longer owned by System1, so:

I'm currently using Firefox, with Waterfox as a secondary. Waterfox is pretty much Firefox with privacy improvements, but one minor but potentially notable difference is that it's based on the ESR (Extended Support Release) version of Firefox. This means it's more stable in terms of code--you're not getting updates every few weeks that could remove features you like or change the UX a ton (stuff that people have complained about with Firefox and Chrome in the past). But it also means that Waterfox is essentially several major versions behind Firefox proper.

Where this impacts me specifically, and probably impacts others, is that Waterfox doesn't yet benefit from WebAssembly GC, or wasmgc, and that means performance in Google Sheets is significantly slower than Firefox or Chrome. It's not enough to make me switch my secondary back to Chrome, but it is worth noting for people doing a lot of work in big Google Sheets documents. (Why would someone using Waterfox want to be using Google Suite, you ask? Honestly, Google Sheets is still very useful and there are not a lot of alternatives that hold a candle to it unfortunately.)

Chances are, you don't have any specific use cases that would be affected by being on a browser based on Firefox ESR instead of normal Firefox. But it was the kind of thing that made me think I should re-examine Librewolf, which is based on the normal Firefox release instead.
posted by chrominance at 11:26 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]

I had an issue with an extension I relied on not supporting the then-current ESR, so ymmv.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:33 AM on February 28

Sure, I guess there's "alternatives" to Firefox. But they all definitely suck more. This feels like anti-adbliock browser-war propaganda to put the final stake in Mozilla.
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:47 AM on February 28

Hmm, though this Waterfox...
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:49 AM on February 28

My gut says this is a twofold issue:
1. People overreacting to certain TOS terms that are necessary from a legal POV. e.g. every time a site adds a clause that says that you give them a royalty-free, non-revocable, worldwide license to display your content in any medium, now known or developed in the future, people freak the fuck out without thinking about how, yes, that is how social media works.

Their line in the TOS ("use that information to help you navigate, experience, and interact with online content as you indicate with your use of Firefox") explicitly mentions user intent. This is a nothingburger.

2. Mozilla failing to fully explain that "selling" has different meanings in different jurisdictions, and actually pointing to the jurisdictions where it has a broad definition. Independent of my trust of Mozilla--which I would say I mostly do trust them--I 100% believe this is actually the case. For example, under the California Consumer Privacy Act/California Privacy Rights Act, "selling" data means communicating a consumer's personal information to a third party for valuable consideration. Valuable consideration does not just mean money -- it's "any benefit conferred" according to California law.

There are all sorts of ways I can imagine Mozilla ending up on the wrong end of a lawsuit claiming they violated CCPA/CPRA by simply being a browser. And whether they're actually valid or not, lawsuits are not a good thing to an already-struggling nonprofit.
posted by tubedogg at 11:51 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

Oooo, a native vertical tabs?
posted by DeepSeaHaggis at 11:51 AM on February 28 [1 favorite]

As trig partially illustrates above, the Mozilla Foundation/Mozilla Corporation is one of the great tragedies of the Internet age. Since 2005, the foundation has received more than $6.5 billion (yes, billion with B) from Google. All anyone ever wanted from the Mozilla Foundation was to build the best, free, privacy-preserving web browser available (and maybe an email client as well) Instead we got a Google-like graveyard of projects. An Internet of Things framework?? A "VR first" browser?? A VPN?? A mobile Operating System?? NO!! A standards-based, cross-platform web browser that displays websites as fast an any app on the market with privacy built in-- can you imagine if Firefox had been laser-focused on just doing that for the last 20 years? It's a fucking tragedy is what it is.
posted by gwint at 11:53 AM on February 28 [10 favorites]

Isn't time for some enlightened Scandinavian government to start funding some libre software development because they recognize it as not only a common good, but also as critical infrastructure?

Seems like a slam dunk if the EU wants to muscle in on the US-dominated tech hegemony. An alternative source of funding for Firefox/LibreOffice/Linux/etc type projects that are both critical infrastructure and also utterly beholden to the US ad-tech companies like Google.

Arguably the whole reason for this is that Firefox has been held up by Google the same way Apple was held up by Microsoft in the 90s: as a shield against anti-trust action. They need some sort of token competitor to prove they aren't a monopoly.

Since that has a 0% chance of happening under this current administration, could be Google's looking to save some money. They currently make up like 90% of Mozilla's revenue based entirely on the default browser setting agreement. And without that, Mozilla can't afford to pay for people to keep making Firefox.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 11:54 AM on February 28 [2 favorites]

without [Google revenue], Mozilla can't afford to pay for people to keep making Firefox.

If this chart is accurate, from 2021-2023 Mozilla took in about $100 million on top of the income from Google. That is about twice its total revenue in the years 2005-2008. I don't know what revenues looked like in the earliest years of the Firefox (and Thunderbird! There used to be a whole Mozilla Suite!) development, but I would guess it wasn't more than that.

I think they could afford to keep working on Firefox just fine.

gwint is right, it's a ridiculous tragedy.
posted by trig at 12:46 PM on February 28

I think so far I'm with SaltySalticid on this - as far as I can tell, Mozilla doesn't have much of my personal data to begin with (indeed, I have all those checkboxes turned off already, so they may not have ANY?), and I'm not thrilled about them possibly selling my data, but I'm not that alarmed because, again, I don't think they HAVE any.

It's not like Facebook (I don't have a Facebook account) or even Google (I DO have a Google account), where I have to log in, and my activities are likely to reveal things about me. When I use Firefox, I'm not logging in to Mozilla anywhere, and as far as I can see, they have no info about me.

I am in favor of massive, massive reductions in the ways personal data is held and sold, but on my list of privacy concerns, this is not alarming me at all.

All the same, I really appreciate you posting this, Faintdreams, so I could learn about it from helpful links and the fine minds of the hive mind.
posted by kristi at 12:46 PM on February 28 [2 favorites]

If this chart is accurate, from 2021-2023 Mozilla took in about $100 million on top of the income from Google (each year)
posted by trig at 12:54 PM on February 28

I think they could afford to keep working on Firefox just fine

Yeah, if that chart's accurate they should be very much operating in the green. But the fully-loaded cost of experienced SWEs can be very expensive. There has to be a path toward sustainability beyond 4 or 5 years out once the Google money has dried up.
posted by howbigisthistextfield at 12:55 PM on February 28

The Orion browser is by the Kagi folks and is based on WebKit.
posted by caphector at 2:09 PM on February 28

skynxnex, It's likely Brave pivoted towards cryptocurrency for fundraising, which Mozilla never required. We've no idea how Mozilla would've evolved under Brendan Eich, but cryptocurrency sounds quite unlikely, likely Mozilla would've kept helping Google push web ads. Brendan Eich would've changed how they prioritize their many side projects, but unclear how since hiring determines this.

Also after 5 min of searching, I've only found only one real red flag: Brave uses Solana. Brave never even hit web3isgoinggreat.com. At a guess, Solana VCs offered Brave huge sums to use Solana, instead of deploying their own accounting system. Meh

gwint, Rust and Servo were projects green lit by Brendan Eich, with at least Rust being a really major achievement & success story. Mozilla dropped Rust and Servo in 2021, but likely the split helped Rust given the Mozilla dumpster fire, not sure about Servo.

Also, Mozilla wasted $6 billion doing random dumb shit, but without becoming too horrifically evil, well until their current AI push. Tim Berners-Lee wasted all the W3C on semantic web stupidity ran out of money, raised money pushing the really evil EME standard for Hollywood. Brave & Eich have a cleaner conscience than TBL and W3C too.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:23 PM on February 28 [1 favorite]

Mozilla wasted $6 billion doing random dumb shit, but without becoming too horrifically evil, well until their current AI push

God, what a pathetically low bar, but it does seem to fit the zeitgeist.
posted by gwint at 2:27 PM on February 28 [1 favorite]

HN thread had an interesting suggestion:

sunshine-o 9 hours ago | parent | prev | next [–]
> Either their legal team made a mistake, in which case they should correct it and issue an apology ASAP

I don't think it is a mistake but more the translation of a vision and strategy that took hundreds of meetings to be laid down very precisely.

I have nothing to back what I am gonna say but I am wondering if their strategy might be to truly become the default browser of governments who are uncomfortable having Chrome or Edge as the default browser. Especially since now they get augmented by a lot of AI.

Firefox has it largest market share in Europe and Germany it seems and with the concerns with are hearing over there about Big tech I wouldn't be surprised at some point some govs try to make their workstations Firefox only.

Also some governments are trying hard to restrict access to porn, violence and social media for children but we know it is almost impossible to do it at the network level. So they might try at the browser level with the help of Mozilla and some "sanctioned Internet AI safety" inside the browser?

I really don't know but think about it, Mozilla is a dead man walking with it's 2% market share and huge cost of maintaining one of the most complex piece of software. They have to do something about it.

What just tipped me off is reading on Wikipedia [0]:

> On February 8, 2024, Mozilla announced that Baker would be stepping down as CEO to "focus on AI and internet safety"[2] as chair of the Mozilla Foundation.
- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitchell_Baker
posted by aleph at 3:11 PM on February 28

also that same thread suggested other browsers:

[snip]
Either their legal team made a mistake, in which case they should correct it and issue an apology ASAP, or they really do intend to own you, in which case I recommend switching to an alternative browser which is only a browser, like Dillo, Ladybird, or Netsurf.
edit: they also liked Origin
posted by aleph at 3:13 PM on February 28

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