Windows 10 Leaving Support
June 15, 2025 11:43 AM Subscribe
It's four months until Microsoft declares that Windows 10 will cease being supported for free (on International E-Waste Day!), while over half the Windows install base is still using it. Microsoft suggests upgrading to Windows 11, but it officially requires a TPM 2.0 module and a fairly recent processor, which many older computers don't have, and further there's been substantial pushback towards Win11's AI-based Copilot feature. What options do you have if you want to keep using your older computer? More than you may think. ExplainingComputers on Youtube goes over each case. (14 minutes)
Note: in past Windows 11 threads, one user expressed rising concern over Microsoft's impending deadline. I hope people who are feeling stressed over the end of Windows 10 support will find a useable option here
To summarize, the options are:
Do nothing: Okay at first, but as time passes and new security holes are found these machines will become more and more insecure. As the video will tell you, just running antivirus and malware detection software is not a good option here.
Run Windows 10 offline: If you absolutely don't need to access the internet on the machine, just turn off its Wi-Fi or pull its network plug. Of course, nearly everything wants to use the internet these days.
Buy Microsoft extended security: There's a lot of detail here. Home users can pay $30 for only one year of extended support. Commericlal users can pay an increasing amount for updates for each of three following years, totaling $427 by the end (more than enough for a cheap replacement Windows 11 PC, and approaching the cost of a Mac Mini). Educational users can get the three years of support for a total of just $7.
Buy 3rd party security patches: 0Patch is offering security updates at around $29 for each of five more years. Of course they will still cost money, they won't be as well-made as Microsoft's, plus they might not plug all the holes that are found.
Switch to Windows Enterprise LTSC: Of course Microsoft's corporate customers have an option that will get them out of this situation for a while. One of these versions gets updates until 2029. This is a version made for special-purpose hardware. Doing this means buying a replacement Windows version and a complete reinstall, it may not receive driver updates, and you'd need a Microsoft volume licensing account as it's only intended for businesses.
Unofficial Windows 11 install: Please take note of this. It is possible to run Windows 11 on PCs without TPM 2.0 or a supported processor, but it's "not supported." ExplainingComputers has made a video demonstrating the process (16 minutes). All three methods amount to making some Registry edits somewhere or other, either on the Windows 11 ISO (using Rufus), on a Windows 10 install before upgrade, or breaking into a Windows 11 install in process, making the edits, then continuing. Microsoft warns this may result in compatibility issues and won't receive updates. Up to this point however, unsupported computers have gotten updates. Microsoft could always change this at any time, or include a new component that requires one of the supported processors.
Fully Migrate to a Linux Distribution: The advantage is a fully supported OS without any AI crap or whatever else Microsoft decides you Have to Have. The biggest disadvantage are some programs won't work, fewer than you'd think, but notably MS Office, Adobe Creative Suite and DaVinci Resolve. Games that demand kernel-level anticheat simply won't work, but beyond that you might be surprised at the progress Linux gaming has made, thanks to it being the native OS of the Steam Deck. A subcategory of this is switching to a ChromeOS-based operating system, which will also have support, but probably have even greater app compatibility issues.
Hybrid options:
Dual boot Linux & offline Windows 10 (has to be set up properly, and it's a hassle to switch between them)
Linux with Windows 10 running offline in a virtual machine (doable, but splits resources)
Windows 10 online running Linux in a virtual machine (splits resources and there's some security risk)
Note: in past Windows 11 threads, one user expressed rising concern over Microsoft's impending deadline. I hope people who are feeling stressed over the end of Windows 10 support will find a useable option here
To summarize, the options are:
Do nothing: Okay at first, but as time passes and new security holes are found these machines will become more and more insecure. As the video will tell you, just running antivirus and malware detection software is not a good option here.
Run Windows 10 offline: If you absolutely don't need to access the internet on the machine, just turn off its Wi-Fi or pull its network plug. Of course, nearly everything wants to use the internet these days.
Buy Microsoft extended security: There's a lot of detail here. Home users can pay $30 for only one year of extended support. Commericlal users can pay an increasing amount for updates for each of three following years, totaling $427 by the end (more than enough for a cheap replacement Windows 11 PC, and approaching the cost of a Mac Mini). Educational users can get the three years of support for a total of just $7.
Buy 3rd party security patches: 0Patch is offering security updates at around $29 for each of five more years. Of course they will still cost money, they won't be as well-made as Microsoft's, plus they might not plug all the holes that are found.
Switch to Windows Enterprise LTSC: Of course Microsoft's corporate customers have an option that will get them out of this situation for a while. One of these versions gets updates until 2029. This is a version made for special-purpose hardware. Doing this means buying a replacement Windows version and a complete reinstall, it may not receive driver updates, and you'd need a Microsoft volume licensing account as it's only intended for businesses.
Unofficial Windows 11 install: Please take note of this. It is possible to run Windows 11 on PCs without TPM 2.0 or a supported processor, but it's "not supported." ExplainingComputers has made a video demonstrating the process (16 minutes). All three methods amount to making some Registry edits somewhere or other, either on the Windows 11 ISO (using Rufus), on a Windows 10 install before upgrade, or breaking into a Windows 11 install in process, making the edits, then continuing. Microsoft warns this may result in compatibility issues and won't receive updates. Up to this point however, unsupported computers have gotten updates. Microsoft could always change this at any time, or include a new component that requires one of the supported processors.
Fully Migrate to a Linux Distribution: The advantage is a fully supported OS without any AI crap or whatever else Microsoft decides you Have to Have. The biggest disadvantage are some programs won't work, fewer than you'd think, but notably MS Office, Adobe Creative Suite and DaVinci Resolve. Games that demand kernel-level anticheat simply won't work, but beyond that you might be surprised at the progress Linux gaming has made, thanks to it being the native OS of the Steam Deck. A subcategory of this is switching to a ChromeOS-based operating system, which will also have support, but probably have even greater app compatibility issues.
Hybrid options:
Dual boot Linux & offline Windows 10 (has to be set up properly, and it's a hassle to switch between them)
Linux with Windows 10 running offline in a virtual machine (doable, but splits resources)
Windows 10 online running Linux in a virtual machine (splits resources and there's some security risk)
🐧
posted by Clowder of bats at 11:56 AM on June 15 [3 favorites]
posted by Clowder of bats at 11:56 AM on June 15 [3 favorites]
Oh and MXLinux is a nice basic option for my laptop that I installed and was pretty solid and minimal system requirements. Not sure if it's best for noobs, but it's a good noobie-ish systemd free option; and they're tied to antix - which is explicitly anti-fascist.
posted by symbioid at 11:57 AM on June 15 [2 favorites]
posted by symbioid at 11:57 AM on June 15 [2 favorites]
Up to this point however, unsupported computers have gotten updates. Microsoft could always change this at any time, or include a new component that requires one of the supported processors.
Is there any indication this may be coming? I'd like to gift my parents a Windows 11 computer updated this way, but I don't want to disappoint them with a perfectly good computer that Microsoft decides to brick out of a fit of shareholder pique. (And, no, Linux is not an option, sorry.)
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:05 PM on June 15
Is there any indication this may be coming? I'd like to gift my parents a Windows 11 computer updated this way, but I don't want to disappoint them with a perfectly good computer that Microsoft decides to brick out of a fit of shareholder pique. (And, no, Linux is not an option, sorry.)
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 12:05 PM on June 15
I’m running 11 on older Lenovo machine, but have made it workable by gradually disabling a lot of its background processes and keeping it very light on installed software. It’s still at times slower than I would like - older than the computer, though, at this point is me. I’m just wearing out on the endless cycle of keeping up, modifying and spending real money just to do the pretty rudimentary things I need to do digitally. I’m rapidly approaching some kind of “fuck it” point, it feels like.
I know this is debatable and has been debated here multiple times, but I remain of the mind that Linux has never been novice or plug-and-play friendly enough to be proudly useful to people uncomfortable with coding and command lines.
posted by reedbird_hill at 12:06 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
I know this is debatable and has been debated here multiple times, but I remain of the mind that Linux has never been novice or plug-and-play friendly enough to be proudly useful to people uncomfortable with coding and command lines.
posted by reedbird_hill at 12:06 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
Alas, I use Adobe Creative Suite and DaVinci Resolve. I have great, powerful PC workstations built by Puget Systems and I am going to have to either stick with Windows 10 by paying for the updates or turn on the TPM, etc, and upgrade to Windows 11 with all of its lumps. Rats. Everything has just worked for the past 5 years and I am pissed that I have to fuck with it.
posted by bz at 12:06 PM on June 15 [10 favorites]
posted by bz at 12:06 PM on June 15 [10 favorites]
I realize everyone online has been sick of this discussion for decades, but I'm of the opinion that if Microsoft can pull this kind of thing and the Linux community still can't produce a desktop OS that nontechnical people would rather use for work and play, that points to a major failure of the FOSS model. I'm a longtime convert and there's enough jank in my chosen distro that I still don't feel comfortable haranguing my friends and loved ones to switch.
Also I wouldn't be me if I didn't point out that Microsoft has long been under boycott for contracting with Israeli apartheid.
posted by jy4m at 12:09 PM on June 15 [8 favorites]
Also I wouldn't be me if I didn't point out that Microsoft has long been under boycott for contracting with Israeli apartheid.
posted by jy4m at 12:09 PM on June 15 [8 favorites]
For those thinking of buying a new machine rather than the above options, the cost/value proposition for Mac vs PC are possibly more favorable than ever for Macs (especially the Mini), unless you're a gamer. If you're a hardcore gamer, you'll have to go with one of the above options or a new PC.
I'm paying very close attention to SteamOS. IMO it's not really quite there yet, but before the next upgrade cycle there may be literally no reason to run Windows unless you need its business software, such as Power BI.
posted by tclark at 12:11 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
I'm paying very close attention to SteamOS. IMO it's not really quite there yet, but before the next upgrade cycle there may be literally no reason to run Windows unless you need its business software, such as Power BI.
posted by tclark at 12:11 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
ISTR early on in the Windows 11 shitshow there was the possibility of add-on TPM2.0 units. Did Microsoft kill this option with the "and a recent processor" stipulation, or was it never really a thing?
posted by scruss at 12:12 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
posted by scruss at 12:12 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
I think it's fair to say a company that puts AI in its bare-bones text editor has lost perspective.
posted by Lemkin at 12:24 PM on June 15 [12 favorites]
posted by Lemkin at 12:24 PM on June 15 [12 favorites]
Fuck this mafia monopolist shit.
MS "Looks like you need a new computer"
ME "But my computer works fine.."
MS *smashes computer to pieces* "Looks like you need a new computer"
posted by Acey at 12:39 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
MS "Looks like you need a new computer"
ME "But my computer works fine.."
MS *smashes computer to pieces* "Looks like you need a new computer"
posted by Acey at 12:39 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
I only use my Windows machines for ham radio software, so this isn't going to affect me all that much. I don't need to keep them running except when needed. I suppose that some day even ham software will require 11, so I'll have to do something, but that's a problem for future me.
posted by tommasz at 12:40 PM on June 15
posted by tommasz at 12:40 PM on June 15
I use Windows 11, MacOS and Linux machines for work and my least favourite is Windows. Teams seems super glitchy and it's weird how the calendar functionality is shared between Outlook and Teams but with vastly different interfaces. The migration to Windows 11 at work has also made a very large number of perfectly good older machines obsolete since we are not allowed to install anything else on them. It's frustrating. I'm frustrated.
posted by piyushnz at 12:51 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
posted by piyushnz at 12:51 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
I was just given an old Lenovo laptop with Windows 10. I can't afford to pay for anything; that's why I accepted a free computer. I'm leaning towards the "do nothing" option. What's the worst that could happen?
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:56 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:56 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
It's been decades since I tried Linux, and it was actually reasonably smooth even then. And damn if I don't want FOSS to succeed. But I didn't have such rose-colored glasses that I thought it was ready for mainstream use then.
Surely the situation has gotten better. My son is interested in trying it out soon, so I guess we'll see how that goes.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 1:01 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
Surely the situation has gotten better. My son is interested in trying it out soon, so I guess we'll see how that goes.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 1:01 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
Sorry - that should have been "broadly useful" at the end of my comment RE: Linux.
posted by reedbird_hill at 1:04 PM on June 15
posted by reedbird_hill at 1:04 PM on June 15
I have a PC that supports Windows 11 and is running Windows 11 right now, but due in part to the frankly bizarre way Microsoft tried to roll out their Recall "take screenshots of everything you do on your computer and store them in a quote-unquote secure database that totally can't be ransacked by hostile parties" feature, I recently decided to sit down and figure out how to dual boot a Linux OS on this machine, in case I should need to retire Windows.
My weapon of choice was Nobara, since I play a lot of games on this PC but wasn't sure about the implications of using an atomic distro like Bazzite (one of the other OSes commonly recommended for gamers). There have been some hiccups, and I don't know that I'd recommend it to someone who just wants their thing to work without thinking too hard or typing in too many arcane commands. I'm also out of the first honeymoon phase ("wow, so much stuff just... works!") and into the first growing-pains phase ("this software works but not exactly the way the Windows equivalent worked, and change is hard!").
All that said: it's entirely usable as a daily driver, and it took less work than I figured to get some of my weird use cases working (ex. video recording/editing, running multiple Steam accounts for an online game I play, etc.). I've slowly been working towards migrating more stuff over to Linux, which has also finally forced me to re-learn making Docker containers for some of the local webapps I made over a decade ago and still run for various reasons.
It's been an interesting process and I do feel a lot better about being able to escape the Microsoft ecosystem if and when it becomes necessary, but I'm still working towards achieving escape velocity. But I feel pretty good that it can and will happen at some point.
posted by chrominance at 1:23 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
My weapon of choice was Nobara, since I play a lot of games on this PC but wasn't sure about the implications of using an atomic distro like Bazzite (one of the other OSes commonly recommended for gamers). There have been some hiccups, and I don't know that I'd recommend it to someone who just wants their thing to work without thinking too hard or typing in too many arcane commands. I'm also out of the first honeymoon phase ("wow, so much stuff just... works!") and into the first growing-pains phase ("this software works but not exactly the way the Windows equivalent worked, and change is hard!").
All that said: it's entirely usable as a daily driver, and it took less work than I figured to get some of my weird use cases working (ex. video recording/editing, running multiple Steam accounts for an online game I play, etc.). I've slowly been working towards migrating more stuff over to Linux, which has also finally forced me to re-learn making Docker containers for some of the local webapps I made over a decade ago and still run for various reasons.
It's been an interesting process and I do feel a lot better about being able to escape the Microsoft ecosystem if and when it becomes necessary, but I'm still working towards achieving escape velocity. But I feel pretty good that it can and will happen at some point.
posted by chrominance at 1:23 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
MS *smashes computer to pieces* "Looks like you need a new computer"
APPLE "Looks like you need a new phone"
ME "But my phone works fine.."
APPLE *smashes battery life to pieces* "Looks like you need a new phone"
Gigabyte "Looks like you need a new gaming computer"
ME "But my computer plays fine.."
Gigabyte motherboard *explodes, taking the rest of the PC with it* "Looks like you need a new gaming computer"
Truly we are living in the golden age of the consumer.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 1:41 PM on June 15 [10 favorites]
APPLE "Looks like you need a new phone"
ME "But my phone works fine.."
APPLE *smashes battery life to pieces* "Looks like you need a new phone"
Gigabyte "Looks like you need a new gaming computer"
ME "But my computer plays fine.."
Gigabyte motherboard *explodes, taking the rest of the PC with it* "Looks like you need a new gaming computer"
Truly we are living in the golden age of the consumer.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 1:41 PM on June 15 [10 favorites]
Small correction: Davinci Resolve works on Linux. This guy went through the hullabaloo of migrating his entire formerly Adobe work environment over to Linux with great success. Worth a watch if interested!
posted by Philipschall at 1:42 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
posted by Philipschall at 1:42 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
I have only one computer running Win10, I use it as a MIDI host running a couple of Native Instruments VSTs. NI software is really proprietary in that I can't simply install it on a different computer and bring my libraries over - there's a whole annoying de-register on old machine /re-register on new machine process that's a bit worry-inducing. Oh, and I understand NI/Kontakt doesn't necessarily play nice with Linux; also upgrading the unsupported PC to Win11 comes with its own potential pain points. I might just turn wifi off and kick the problem down the road while I get around to doing more research.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:49 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:49 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
>the cost/value proposition for Mac vs PC are possibly more favorable than ever for Macs...
Just remember that a Mac won't save you from planned obsolescence either. I had a perfectly functional Mac laptop that I had to replace because Apple does the same thing Microsoft is doing - ending support for older hardware. If anything I feel more bitter about Apple's choice, they should be able to support their stuff longer, given how much more homogenous the hardware is and their iron fist on the ecosystem, compared to all the hardware Microsoft has to support.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 1:57 PM on June 15 [6 favorites]
Just remember that a Mac won't save you from planned obsolescence either. I had a perfectly functional Mac laptop that I had to replace because Apple does the same thing Microsoft is doing - ending support for older hardware. If anything I feel more bitter about Apple's choice, they should be able to support their stuff longer, given how much more homogenous the hardware is and their iron fist on the ecosystem, compared to all the hardware Microsoft has to support.
posted by mrgoldenbrown at 1:57 PM on June 15 [6 favorites]
My work computer is owned an managed by my employer. The upgrade from 10 to 11 took about 20 minutes, was completely automated, and went smoothly. Since they have a corporate license with all the bullshit turned off (including Recall) I can hardly tell the difference between the two versions.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 2:01 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 2:01 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
But if you need Adobe bullshit, well I guess get a mac. I wish open source had a real competitor for that.
"Adobe bullshit" is industry standard for a lot of people.
As my username implies, I spent a ton of time in Adobe Creative Cloud and occasionally Da Vinci Resolve. I am a long-time Windows user but am seriously starting to consider switching to a Mac. Partly due to MS shenanigans, but also because Adobe does a crap job of supporting their Windows products, from talking to numerous people the Mac version of their products work far, far more smoothly. Would love to switch to Linux, but you're right - there's isn't a good alternative. And to be honest, unlike most folks on here I am not a tinkerer - I just want it to work.
posted by photo guy at 2:09 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
"Adobe bullshit" is industry standard for a lot of people.
As my username implies, I spent a ton of time in Adobe Creative Cloud and occasionally Da Vinci Resolve. I am a long-time Windows user but am seriously starting to consider switching to a Mac. Partly due to MS shenanigans, but also because Adobe does a crap job of supporting their Windows products, from talking to numerous people the Mac version of their products work far, far more smoothly. Would love to switch to Linux, but you're right - there's isn't a good alternative. And to be honest, unlike most folks on here I am not a tinkerer - I just want it to work.
posted by photo guy at 2:09 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
tommasz: what ham software do you run that's Windows-only? IME hams are more linux-friendly than the population at large, and I've had no trouble finding linux or mac equivalents for things other people run on Windows. -- 73 de KU2MM
posted by phliar at 2:15 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
posted by phliar at 2:15 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
I just said to hell with it altogether and bought a new MacBook Air. My main objection to Windows and MS Office was having the stupid AI installed in such a way that it was very difficult to opt out and I had to be very careful what software I used. I have contacted them several times for assistance with having a simple install of Windows sans AI like I used to have, and just got a run around. Despite me having been a long time customer of theirs they didn't seem to care.
I have one Windows machine left and when it goes south I will get a Mini. I will admit I am kind of bummed I cannot just open the Mac up and add RAM or a larger HD, but the default configuration is enough for my use. I also have a couple of large M2 drive enclosures that work just fine with the Mac, so I have backup and extra room options. Also I will miss being able to fix my own computer, but my last Windows laptop is a PITA to fix anyhow, and parts are not really available after only 5 years. Apple Care will take care of my needs.
posted by cybrcamper at 2:19 PM on June 15
I have one Windows machine left and when it goes south I will get a Mini. I will admit I am kind of bummed I cannot just open the Mac up and add RAM or a larger HD, but the default configuration is enough for my use. I also have a couple of large M2 drive enclosures that work just fine with the Mac, so I have backup and extra room options. Also I will miss being able to fix my own computer, but my last Windows laptop is a PITA to fix anyhow, and parts are not really available after only 5 years. Apple Care will take care of my needs.
posted by cybrcamper at 2:19 PM on June 15
I ran Ubuntu on a shitty laptop circa 2014 until a couple years ago, when I bought a Windows machine. I've really been enjoying being able to download any Steam game I want, but I'm also not willing to host or use AI in any sense on my personal computer so....I guess it's back to Linux for me.
Every so often I think "But I might need Windows!" but legitimately, I haven't in many years. I do all my writing in google docs or Notepad and I don't do digital art. There was some licensing thing where they wanted me to pay for Word after buying the new laptop and hell no, so I never switched back. Windows music management also sucks, so I'm not using that either. My side gig is browser-based and works in Brave. I have Windows at work and I hate it. Linux occasionally has an error that I'm not knowledgeable enough to interpret without searching the text and piecing together a solution from Linux enthusiast forum posts that are practically in another language, but I always figure it out in the end. Giving up on social media-- letting sites die and just not making new accounts anywhere-- has been really good for me, maybe letting computers be difficult and not have any good games any more will be good for me, too.
posted by blnkfrnk at 2:28 PM on June 15 [5 favorites]
Every so often I think "But I might need Windows!" but legitimately, I haven't in many years. I do all my writing in google docs or Notepad and I don't do digital art. There was some licensing thing where they wanted me to pay for Word after buying the new laptop and hell no, so I never switched back. Windows music management also sucks, so I'm not using that either. My side gig is browser-based and works in Brave. I have Windows at work and I hate it. Linux occasionally has an error that I'm not knowledgeable enough to interpret without searching the text and piecing together a solution from Linux enthusiast forum posts that are practically in another language, but I always figure it out in the end. Giving up on social media-- letting sites die and just not making new accounts anywhere-- has been really good for me, maybe letting computers be difficult and not have any good games any more will be good for me, too.
posted by blnkfrnk at 2:28 PM on June 15 [5 favorites]
"My work computer is owned an managed by my employer. The upgrade from 10 to 11 took about 20 minutes, was completely automated, and went smoothly. Since they have a corporate license with all the bullshit turned off (including Recall) I can hardly tell the difference between the two versions."
My work computer under similar licensing and management has all the bullshit fully operational, and we work in healthcare, where the privacy laws are pretty strict. I cannot see how our IT folks trust something that extends so deeply and extensively into our business, but I guess that is someone else's problem.
posted by cybrcamper at 2:31 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
My work computer under similar licensing and management has all the bullshit fully operational, and we work in healthcare, where the privacy laws are pretty strict. I cannot see how our IT folks trust something that extends so deeply and extensively into our business, but I guess that is someone else's problem.
posted by cybrcamper at 2:31 PM on June 15 [3 favorites]
I'm one of the Adobe People but honestly I'm sick of their shit too, between the AI and the rent-seeking. And I do home recording, but possibly I could get all my stuff to work on a Mac. It's a pain, but I am getting mighty tired of giving money to people who suck.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 2:39 PM on June 15 [5 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 2:39 PM on June 15 [5 favorites]
APPLE "Looks like you need a new phone"
ME "But my phone works fine.."
APPLE *smashes battery life to pieces* "Looks like you need a new phone"
The battery in my 6s definitely seems to need recharged more often these days.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:15 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
ME "But my phone works fine.."
APPLE *smashes battery life to pieces* "Looks like you need a new phone"
The battery in my 6s definitely seems to need recharged more often these days.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:15 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
I use a Mac mostly to use a combination of browser and ssh to run things on a beefy Linux desktop. It is basically a very expensive keyboard and display attached to a workhorse. Haven't touched Windows in a decade.
posted by kaibutsu at 3:16 PM on June 15
posted by kaibutsu at 3:16 PM on June 15
after finally migrating to win 10, now none of my win 10 machines can migrate to 11 because of that stupid tpm 2 requirement - i did get a cheap used win 11 laptop just in case i have to use it online but i'm more inclined to keep using win 10 until i really can't - and then i just might use my ubunto studio laptop instead
posted by pyramid termite at 3:27 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 3:27 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
Is there any indication this may be coming? I'd like to gift my parents a Windows 11 computer updated this way, but I don't want to disappoint them with a perfectly good computer that Microsoft decides to brick out of a fit of shareholder pique. (And, no, Linux is not an option, sorry.)
The video states that there have been no indications, other than Microsoft saying you're not entitled to updates in a page mentioned in the video. It works now. Microsoft reserves the right to make it not work in the future. What does that mean? Only Microsoft knows.
I'm of the opinion that if Microsoft can pull this kind of thing and the Linux community still can't produce a desktop OS that nontechnical people would rather use for work and play, that points to a major failure of the FOSS model.
What you're saying is more to the nature of changing people's opinions than the relative merits of Windows and Linux. Lots of people stick with what they know to the exclusion of all else, will take any speed bump as an indication that the thing is bad and it was a mistake to try it, want to learn literally nothing new, etc, for proof look at the US political situation. It would take a unanimous consensus of the tech press, all their friends and the internet itself to get some of them to even consider it. Many will never change, regardless. Trends only change slowly. Remember how long it took to get people off of Internet Explorer?
Anyway, lots of non-technical people use Linux with no problems every day. I've said this elsewhere, but truthfully the less you expect out of your computer, the more likely you are to easily pick up Linux Mint or another ultra-easy distribution. That is, after all, the entire reason ChromeOS exists. And if you're really technically minded, having a system with an efficient shell is also really nice. (bash will be a revelation to you, it was to me.)
It's the middle ground of people, power users who have a heavy knowledge investment in the way Windows does things, who think that is just how computers work, they're the ones who'll have the most problems.
I wish open source had a real competitor for that.
Some of it is super particular things that industries have specified. Some of it is people who have learned Photoshop and don't want to retrain. Some of it is the GNU Image Manipulation Program's many quirks and unintuitive aspects. (Twice now a project has arisen that was just GNU IMP but with a more sensible, Photoshop-like interface, and twice now it ran its course and got abandoned.)
On the other hand, look at Blender. That's software that realized it was difficult to use, made a concerted effort to become better, succeed, and now Flow was made entirely using it and has become the toast of the animation world. And they're still working on it! Why can't GNU IMP consider doing that? And why can't they reconsider their name? Answer is, open source projects often become personality-driven, where project leaders adopt strongly-held opinions and hold the fort rather than consider they might be wrong.
But really, that's not just open source. Corporate-made software does that too, and the people with the strong opinions there tend to be money people. In general, people suck.
posted by JHarris at 3:44 PM on June 15 [5 favorites]
The video states that there have been no indications, other than Microsoft saying you're not entitled to updates in a page mentioned in the video. It works now. Microsoft reserves the right to make it not work in the future. What does that mean? Only Microsoft knows.
I'm of the opinion that if Microsoft can pull this kind of thing and the Linux community still can't produce a desktop OS that nontechnical people would rather use for work and play, that points to a major failure of the FOSS model.
What you're saying is more to the nature of changing people's opinions than the relative merits of Windows and Linux. Lots of people stick with what they know to the exclusion of all else, will take any speed bump as an indication that the thing is bad and it was a mistake to try it, want to learn literally nothing new, etc, for proof look at the US political situation. It would take a unanimous consensus of the tech press, all their friends and the internet itself to get some of them to even consider it. Many will never change, regardless. Trends only change slowly. Remember how long it took to get people off of Internet Explorer?
Anyway, lots of non-technical people use Linux with no problems every day. I've said this elsewhere, but truthfully the less you expect out of your computer, the more likely you are to easily pick up Linux Mint or another ultra-easy distribution. That is, after all, the entire reason ChromeOS exists. And if you're really technically minded, having a system with an efficient shell is also really nice. (bash will be a revelation to you, it was to me.)
It's the middle ground of people, power users who have a heavy knowledge investment in the way Windows does things, who think that is just how computers work, they're the ones who'll have the most problems.
I wish open source had a real competitor for that.
Some of it is super particular things that industries have specified. Some of it is people who have learned Photoshop and don't want to retrain. Some of it is the GNU Image Manipulation Program's many quirks and unintuitive aspects. (Twice now a project has arisen that was just GNU IMP but with a more sensible, Photoshop-like interface, and twice now it ran its course and got abandoned.)
On the other hand, look at Blender. That's software that realized it was difficult to use, made a concerted effort to become better, succeed, and now Flow was made entirely using it and has become the toast of the animation world. And they're still working on it! Why can't GNU IMP consider doing that? And why can't they reconsider their name? Answer is, open source projects often become personality-driven, where project leaders adopt strongly-held opinions and hold the fort rather than consider they might be wrong.
But really, that's not just open source. Corporate-made software does that too, and the people with the strong opinions there tend to be money people. In general, people suck.
posted by JHarris at 3:44 PM on June 15 [5 favorites]
I haven't had a Windows machine since Windows XP, and I haven't been paying much attention to what's going on with this update.
What are the major issues people have with upgrading? Cost? Bloat? Compatibility? I've heard about people's objections to Recall, in very vague terms - how bad is it? Is it the major bad, or just one of many things?
It seems like some of you are capable of updating but don't want to, so I'm curious.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:45 PM on June 15
What are the major issues people have with upgrading? Cost? Bloat? Compatibility? I've heard about people's objections to Recall, in very vague terms - how bad is it? Is it the major bad, or just one of many things?
It seems like some of you are capable of updating but don't want to, so I'm curious.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 3:45 PM on June 15
Linux can never fail you. You can only fail Linux.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:01 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:01 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
GNU Image Manipulation Program
These Culture ship names get more and more "on-the-nose" every day.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:04 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
These Culture ship names get more and more "on-the-nose" every day.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:04 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
I have a very old Windows 10 desktop and a new Lenovo Windows 11 laptop that I swap between using a KVM and a ridiculous number of cables. The laptop is for work but is mine and after a few months I almost never use the other one. Some of that is speed (the Lenovo is fasssst) but the interface seems better in 11 too. I missed the memo on all the problems - can someone summarize?
posted by caviar2d2 at 4:06 PM on June 15
posted by caviar2d2 at 4:06 PM on June 15
the less you expect out of your computer, the more likely you are to easily pick up Linux Mint
I keep reading that sentence, and it keeps saying the same thing.
posted by Lemkin at 4:12 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
I keep reading that sentence, and it keeps saying the same thing.
posted by Lemkin at 4:12 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
The biggest thing: Windows 11 requires a fairly recent machine, with a TPM 2.0 module (Trusted Platform Module 2.0) and processors that have only been sold for about four years. Many people on Windows 10 can't upgrade, not without buying a new machine, using unsupported means, or one of the other options mentioned in the video. Windows 10 is leaving free support, meaning it won't get security updates, making every Win10 machine with an internet connection a time bomb, that will get subverted by malicious actors eventually. A huge number of machines are just not going to be able to upgrade, and Microsoft has told them directly: you have to get a new computer to keep using Windows safely.
The next-biggest thing: some people really don't like Windows 11. Recall takes snapshots of your desktop, and puts them through. Microsoft thinks Recall+, an AI-based version, is the future of Windows. (Microsoft has thought this about a lot of other things in the past that haven't panned out. Remember the Metro Interface? Active Desktop? Widgets? Push content?) There are major privacy concerns about Recall, and lots of people h.a.t.e "AI."
But there's more to the dislike of Windows 11 than that? Windows now litters its interface with ads, upsells, and "suggestions," and "recommendations." System notifications asking you to consider this game or other. OneNote begging you to enable it, and being periodically prompted by a full-screen notice to use it for backups on bootup (which is "recommended"). An upsell for Microsoft Office on installation. An icon on the desktop offering to tell you about the current background image. The lock screen telling you the weather and news unasked-for. The System Control Panel offering to tell you how to "Get even more out of Windows", with buttons for "Let's go!" and "Skip for now."
Hah! This is actually all true of Windows 10, I used my VirtualBox install to remind myself of cases! Windows 11 has all of this and more! And on my laptop, back when it ran Win11, it got into a state where it would freeze the whole UI when I right-clicked on a file! That was the kind of jank people associated with Linux, and there it was on Windows.
Anyway. I'm trying to answer questions, but now I think I'm threadsitting. I should just stop. Stopping: [==== ]
posted by JHarris at 4:13 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
The next-biggest thing: some people really don't like Windows 11. Recall takes snapshots of your desktop, and puts them through. Microsoft thinks Recall+, an AI-based version, is the future of Windows. (Microsoft has thought this about a lot of other things in the past that haven't panned out. Remember the Metro Interface? Active Desktop? Widgets? Push content?) There are major privacy concerns about Recall, and lots of people h.a.t.e "AI."
But there's more to the dislike of Windows 11 than that? Windows now litters its interface with ads, upsells, and "suggestions," and "recommendations." System notifications asking you to consider this game or other. OneNote begging you to enable it, and being periodically prompted by a full-screen notice to use it for backups on bootup (which is "recommended"). An upsell for Microsoft Office on installation. An icon on the desktop offering to tell you about the current background image. The lock screen telling you the weather and news unasked-for. The System Control Panel offering to tell you how to "Get even more out of Windows", with buttons for "Let's go!" and "Skip for now."
Hah! This is actually all true of Windows 10, I used my VirtualBox install to remind myself of cases! Windows 11 has all of this and more! And on my laptop, back when it ran Win11, it got into a state where it would freeze the whole UI when I right-clicked on a file! That was the kind of jank people associated with Linux, and there it was on Windows.
Anyway. I'm trying to answer questions, but now I think I'm threadsitting. I should just stop. Stopping: [==== ]
posted by JHarris at 4:13 PM on June 15 [4 favorites]
i imagine in win 11 you can turn the annoying stuff off, but I'm not looking forward to moving and might even buy the $30 additional year, hmm
What's the worst that could happen?
If you sanitise and carefully back up what you keep on your computer, not that much. if it's a voluminous grab bag of your entire life and you can't imagine losing it and never do backups, quite a lot.
just assume there will be a very small but gradually growing chance of everything on the computer being lost, and act accordingly.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:26 PM on June 15
What's the worst that could happen?
If you sanitise and carefully back up what you keep on your computer, not that much. if it's a voluminous grab bag of your entire life and you can't imagine losing it and never do backups, quite a lot.
just assume there will be a very small but gradually growing chance of everything on the computer being lost, and act accordingly.
posted by Sebmojo at 4:26 PM on June 15
Is there any, even faint fiction, privacy in google drive? Is it silly to consider moving away from Microsoft to google?
posted by rebent at 4:29 PM on June 15
posted by rebent at 4:29 PM on June 15
> "Educational users can get the three years of support for a total of just $7"
Can anyone provide a link to this?
posted by soylent00FF00 at 4:33 PM on June 15
Can anyone provide a link to this?
posted by soylent00FF00 at 4:33 PM on June 15
Windows 11 requires a fairly recent machine, with a TPM 2.0 module (Trusted Platform Module 2.0) and processors that have only been sold for about four years.
Wow.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:35 PM on June 15
Wow.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:35 PM on June 15
photo guy: "Partly due to MS shenanigans, but also because Adobe does a crap job of supporting their Windows products, from talking to numerous people the Mac version of their products work far, far more smoothly. "
I'm on a (fairly small) Illustrator Discord server, and the sense I've gotten from that (and in general) is that Adobe has put more resources in Windows than Mac over the years (because of install share). I've got about 30 years of PC experience overlapping with about 10-12 of mac (more maintaining that using) and I'm just not convinced either side of the fence is superior (there's some color stuff at the margins, but that is just a matter of investing in good monitors, something that Apple is, fairly, much better at in making the default, but I've also been building and not buying for a long time).
JHarris: "The biggest thing: Windows 11 requires a fairly recent machine, with a TPM 2.0 module (Trusted Platform Module 2.0) and processors that have only been sold for about four years. "
I was curious about this, because I feel like I did a beta install of Win 11 on a machine I built in 2011 (because the initial release was TPM optional, IIRC). I can't be sure, because that machine was deaccessioned to a nephew and is now completely defunct. But I went looking, and one resource I found claims that this is the oldest verified processor, released in 2017.
Like I said, I build, don't buy, and MS Office 365 essential to my client work, so once I get past install, I don't see much of the nag stuff (I've never been prompted to activate OneNote, but it might be because it was installed with 365, but there's never been a nag to use it). Anytime I see something about Copilot or Recall, I check out a place like Ars Technica and it's usually easy to find a 'how to get rid of this' and I spend a minute turning it off.
I'm probably above the median in technical skills, and fussy about what goes into my machine, but I honestly don't feel like there is much difference between 10 and 11. I assume Recall will always be opt out, but yeah, you will have to stay on top of it (if only because I can't see how it won't be a huge performance drag).
posted by 99_ at 4:35 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
I'm on a (fairly small) Illustrator Discord server, and the sense I've gotten from that (and in general) is that Adobe has put more resources in Windows than Mac over the years (because of install share). I've got about 30 years of PC experience overlapping with about 10-12 of mac (more maintaining that using) and I'm just not convinced either side of the fence is superior (there's some color stuff at the margins, but that is just a matter of investing in good monitors, something that Apple is, fairly, much better at in making the default, but I've also been building and not buying for a long time).
JHarris: "The biggest thing: Windows 11 requires a fairly recent machine, with a TPM 2.0 module (Trusted Platform Module 2.0) and processors that have only been sold for about four years. "
I was curious about this, because I feel like I did a beta install of Win 11 on a machine I built in 2011 (because the initial release was TPM optional, IIRC). I can't be sure, because that machine was deaccessioned to a nephew and is now completely defunct. But I went looking, and one resource I found claims that this is the oldest verified processor, released in 2017.
Like I said, I build, don't buy, and MS Office 365 essential to my client work, so once I get past install, I don't see much of the nag stuff (I've never been prompted to activate OneNote, but it might be because it was installed with 365, but there's never been a nag to use it). Anytime I see something about Copilot or Recall, I check out a place like Ars Technica and it's usually easy to find a 'how to get rid of this' and I spend a minute turning it off.
I'm probably above the median in technical skills, and fussy about what goes into my machine, but I honestly don't feel like there is much difference between 10 and 11. I assume Recall will always be opt out, but yeah, you will have to stay on top of it (if only because I can't see how it won't be a huge performance drag).
posted by 99_ at 4:35 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
Both my and my roommate's computers were recently bricked by Windows 11 updates. The entire drive had to be replaced. Had to shell out for their mistake and now I'm running WIN10 because obviously! I hate that we're locked into these options as capitalism eats itself.
posted by foxtongue at 4:38 PM on June 15
posted by foxtongue at 4:38 PM on June 15
Recall takes snapshots of your desktop, and puts them through.
What was I going to say there? I think it had to do with them uploading the screenshots to Microsoft, but then Microsoft claimed it didn't do that.
Can anyone provide a link to (educational user pricing)?
Here you go.
But I went looking, and one resource I found claims that this is the oldest verified processor, released in 2017.
My statement was based on information in the video, saying that the processors have only been sold on computers for about "three or four years." It did seem fairly short, now more so that I notice that Windows 11 was released October 2021, nearly four years ago.
Both my and my roommate's computers were recently bricked by Windows 11 updates.
Yikes. That it happened to both of you seems like extremely bad luck.
posted by JHarris at 4:42 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
What was I going to say there? I think it had to do with them uploading the screenshots to Microsoft, but then Microsoft claimed it didn't do that.
Can anyone provide a link to (educational user pricing)?
Here you go.
But I went looking, and one resource I found claims that this is the oldest verified processor, released in 2017.
My statement was based on information in the video, saying that the processors have only been sold on computers for about "three or four years." It did seem fairly short, now more so that I notice that Windows 11 was released October 2021, nearly four years ago.
Both my and my roommate's computers were recently bricked by Windows 11 updates.
Yikes. That it happened to both of you seems like extremely bad luck.
posted by JHarris at 4:42 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
I powered up my oldest pc today and it red screened with a secure boot signature failure.
posted by funkaspuck at 5:06 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
posted by funkaspuck at 5:06 PM on June 15 [1 favorite]
I recently upgraded my 2013-era HP laptop from Ubuntu Studio 22 LTS to Ubuntu Studio 24 LTS and it was a breeze, even for a relatively non-computer-guy me.
I maintain the computers in our house, because female chauvinism, and I can attest that anytime I have an issue with my Ubuntu laptop a google search will get me to a 2-minute fix in two or three link clicks. I loathe having to fix anything on our Windows laptop because I know it's going to be close to an hour of Googling and clicking through lots of links that are either irrelevant or incomplete before I get to something that might be reasonably helpful.
I honestly don't get all the hate for Linux.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:19 PM on June 15
I maintain the computers in our house, because female chauvinism, and I can attest that anytime I have an issue with my Ubuntu laptop a google search will get me to a 2-minute fix in two or three link clicks. I loathe having to fix anything on our Windows laptop because I know it's going to be close to an hour of Googling and clicking through lots of links that are either irrelevant or incomplete before I get to something that might be reasonably helpful.
I honestly don't get all the hate for Linux.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:19 PM on June 15
I honestly don't get all the hate for Linux.
Nobody doubles down harder than a rube who cannot face having been scammed.
posted by flabdablet at 5:30 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
Nobody doubles down harder than a rube who cannot face having been scammed.
posted by flabdablet at 5:30 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
ZenMasterThis, the hate for Linux is from the time when researching a problem on a forum the questioner would be lambasted by people telling them to do a search and not to ask, or they'd be shown unexplained code and told to use the command line for something. I still remember the horrible days of Ubuntu not allowing you to naturally find and run drivers due to their FOSS only thinking. My horrors in trying to get Ubuntu to work during the dial-up days of the internet still has me holding a grudge and not using that distro.
The other bit of hate comes from us Linux fanboys overstepping and telling Win10 users to just switch. That kind of response is old and unwarranted.
Today though, as long as you're not using cutting edge machines or machines that have been landlocked into a Win10 environment then it will work. Want to use a cutting edge machine? Then I suggest buying one built to run Linux. Fewer headaches that way.
But yes. For 90% of us, Linux will just do what's needed.
posted by DB_S at 5:41 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
The other bit of hate comes from us Linux fanboys overstepping and telling Win10 users to just switch. That kind of response is old and unwarranted.
Today though, as long as you're not using cutting edge machines or machines that have been landlocked into a Win10 environment then it will work. Want to use a cutting edge machine? Then I suggest buying one built to run Linux. Fewer headaches that way.
But yes. For 90% of us, Linux will just do what's needed.
posted by DB_S at 5:41 PM on June 15 [2 favorites]
I know I'm just going to have to bite the bullet and get W11, but I'm not looking forward to it. Fortunately many many people like me have done it already and extensively documented every setting that needs to be changed, registry tweaks, replacement software, bloatware removal, etc.
I've been happy with 10 since I switched from 7, and was hoping I could skip 11 like I've skipped so many versions. No such luck. If 12 or whatever were to appear during the extended support time... I have to imagine it would be as bad as 11 was a few years ago. I would rather grudgingly update to the devil I can come to know than be Microsoft's beta tester for a few years.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 5:46 PM on June 15
I've been happy with 10 since I switched from 7, and was hoping I could skip 11 like I've skipped so many versions. No such luck. If 12 or whatever were to appear during the extended support time... I have to imagine it would be as bad as 11 was a few years ago. I would rather grudgingly update to the devil I can come to know than be Microsoft's beta tester for a few years.
posted by BlackLeotardFront at 5:46 PM on June 15
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Steam has changed that now, and I don't play as much as I used to, so I'm ok if I lose some games in my library.
Not SteamOS, but I'm on CachyOS now. I tried Nobara, but find I just didn't like that it's rpm/redhat. Endeavour was pretty but something bout the UI was bugging me. So anyways, Cachy has been really nice for my use case. I am enjoying Plasma 6 even if Cachy's default appearance is ... weird (I don't like ALL GREEN ICONS). I just chose a different theme. I don't use all the features (multiple desktops, etc). I'm currently using tmux and neovim (Lazyvim) for editing python code. But I have pycharm installed as well (and vsCode to test some debugging setup to compare to neovim).
I really think Linux is ok for a daily driver for most people, except the audio issues that might happen (and I think(?) wifi is better now?) If you're an nvidia user you may have issues, but I'm on AMD graphics. Everything is pretty "online" based now anyways, mail web browsing, what most people use. I do get there are concerns about Word/Office docs, but I'm not a power user and so don't think that would affect my needs, and for most people who don't need special specifics, I think it would be fine?)
But if you need Adobe bullshit, well I guess get a mac. I wish open source had a real competitor for that. but I suppose maybe Wine + Corel products might work. I used to be a Paint Shop Pro user. I have a key, maybe I can see if it'll play nice with Wine. Anwyays. Fuck MS. If I get my way I'll move to a non-systemd distro becuase Lennart Poettering who is building this monolithic THING that's taking over linux is employed by MS, and I really don't trust MS to not try to "extend embrace extinguish" linux with this crud that everyone seems to be moving to.
Wayland has been pleasant so far, my only concern would be gnome/wayland (which they are moving to officially now), because there are window decoration implementation issues (server/client decorations) and Gnome IIRC demands only client side, so if you have apps that provide their own server side decorations, you won't get them. IDK how this will play out.
It seems most people who use Windows will probably be fine with Mint (I have a more geeky friend who likes Mint because "it just works") But it was too plain/basic for me. YMMV
That said my comment is probably not the best for people who don't know shit about Linux or its politics or nerdy details.
I hate MS now to the point I deleted my hotmail account that I've had since 1998. They get nothing from me, between Win10/Win11 bullshit and OpenAI/SPY ON YOUR COMPUTER bullshit, fuck em.
Long Live Free Software & Open Source.
posted by symbioid at 11:56 AM on June 15 [7 favorites]