The proof is not in the pudding
March 20, 2025 8:46 AM Subscribe
Trump Admin Unveils New Legal Standard: ‘We Have No Proof, Which Actually Proves Our Case’
Many deportees lacked any evidence of criminality, but the government argues that really makes them MORE criminals.
Joe Patrice:
Esteemed members of the jury, we have no motive or opportunity or physical evidence tying the defendant to the crime. But — in a sense — doesn’t it prove how good he was at covering it up?
We already know that several of these deported individuals had no apparent gang ties beyond “having tattoos,” which should concern everyone but especially America’s goth girls.
It should go without saying that the government shouldn’t imprison people — here or abroad — without any evidence of criminality. If the government thinks a non-criminal migrant presents a threat then they can kick them out of the country but they cannot unilaterally decide that their untested suspicions justify prison time in another country.
Many deportees lacked any evidence of criminality, but the government argues that really makes them MORE criminals.
Joe Patrice:
While it is true that many of the TdA members removed under the AEA do not have criminal records in the United States, that is because they have only been in the United States for a short period of time. The lack of a criminal record does not indicate they pose a limited threat. In fact, based upon their association with TdA, the lack of specific information about each individual actually highlights the risk they pose. It demonstrates that they are terrorists with regard to whom we lack a complete profile.That’s from the declaration of ICE Field Officer Robert Cerna claiming that their complete lack of any evidence is actually a PLUS because “the lack of specific information about each individual actually highlights the risk they pose.”
Esteemed members of the jury, we have no motive or opportunity or physical evidence tying the defendant to the crime. But — in a sense — doesn’t it prove how good he was at covering it up?
We already know that several of these deported individuals had no apparent gang ties beyond “having tattoos,” which should concern everyone but especially America’s goth girls.
It should go without saying that the government shouldn’t imprison people — here or abroad — without any evidence of criminality. If the government thinks a non-criminal migrant presents a threat then they can kick them out of the country but they cannot unilaterally decide that their untested suspicions justify prison time in another country.
Speaking as one of America's goth girls, I am actually more worried about America's goth guys on this one, heh. It seems like they're the ones currently getting the brunt of this. But it's not good for anyone.
posted by limeonaire at 8:59 AM on March 20
posted by limeonaire at 8:59 AM on March 20
This speedrun from "innocent until proven guilty" to "off with his head" is amazing in all the worst ways.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:01 AM on March 20 [14 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:01 AM on March 20 [14 favorites]
Classic conspiracy thinking: the fact that I can find no evidence of your crimes just shows how clever you've been at covering them up.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:12 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 9:12 AM on March 20 [18 favorites]
I've made the mistake recently of getting into it with the friend-of-a-friend on social media; he tried parroting the argument above. But I think I may have found a good clapback: "Even Trump's team admits they don't have criminal records here in the US. Why are you so convinced they do - is it because they're not white?"
I haven't had an answer back yet. Which may be a victory in itself....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:18 AM on March 20 [23 favorites]
I haven't had an answer back yet. Which may be a victory in itself....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:18 AM on March 20 [23 favorites]
It should go without saying that the government shouldn’t imprison people — here or abroad — without any evidence of criminality
When Obama executed US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki with no evidence (none that was ever put before a court of justice) for being a Bad Hombre, Democrats told me they weren’t bothered because we could trust the president’s judgment.
I told them that when a Republican successor started doing the same thing, I hoped people would be honest enough to call it the Obama Doctrine.
posted by Lemkin at 9:19 AM on March 20 [37 favorites]
When Obama executed US citizen Anwar al-Awlaki with no evidence (none that was ever put before a court of justice) for being a Bad Hombre, Democrats told me they weren’t bothered because we could trust the president’s judgment.
I told them that when a Republican successor started doing the same thing, I hoped people would be honest enough to call it the Obama Doctrine.
posted by Lemkin at 9:19 AM on March 20 [37 favorites]
I cannot imagine what their families and especially these innocent fellow human beings are feeling.
I hate everything in this moment, from our growing callousness toward the suffering of others, to the rock solid lust for this among so many Americans, to the misery the Regime is gleefully infecting into our society, to the cowardice of the leaders of the 'opposition' - and lets pour one out for the the Admin of Columbia here, to the feeling of helplessness to help the vulnerable victims, to the future misery which will make today seem like a walk in the park.
Why does humanity seem to come back over and over and over to making as many members as miserable as possible. I understand the nuts and bolts of how Power does it, but in my bones I just don't understand being motivated and living your life to see others suffer.
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:28 AM on March 20 [15 favorites]
I hate everything in this moment, from our growing callousness toward the suffering of others, to the rock solid lust for this among so many Americans, to the misery the Regime is gleefully infecting into our society, to the cowardice of the leaders of the 'opposition' - and lets pour one out for the the Admin of Columbia here, to the feeling of helplessness to help the vulnerable victims, to the future misery which will make today seem like a walk in the park.
Why does humanity seem to come back over and over and over to making as many members as miserable as possible. I understand the nuts and bolts of how Power does it, but in my bones I just don't understand being motivated and living your life to see others suffer.
posted by WatTylerJr at 9:28 AM on March 20 [15 favorites]
If only there was a document that encapsulated all the rules and norms of our nation and guaranteed such rights as “innocent until proven guilty” to all people, not just citizens. Oh well.
posted by rikschell at 9:29 AM on March 20 [12 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 9:29 AM on March 20 [12 favorites]
The preceeding article linked in the OP article also has some choice points.
regarding the bullshit about the plane already being in international waters and thus not subject to the court order:
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:30 AM on March 20 [17 favorites]
regarding the bullshit about the plane already being in international waters and thus not subject to the court order:
Whenever maritime law comes up, you’re probably venturing into crackpot territory. This is a hallmark of the sovereign citizen movement who claim the United States can’t legally make laws because the flags in courtrooms have gold fringe. And, frankly, that might be the next argument advanced by the DOJ — the term is still young!and
As you might imagine, no, this is not how the law works. While a private individual might be able to take a boat into the middle of the ocean to sell trafficked panda meat or something, there is no legal basis for the United States government violating a United States court order simply because the plane — still fully within the command of the United States government — has ventured into the Gulf of Mexico. The Court order applies to the government and the government is still very much here.
They didn’t actually set out to defy a court order.How much this existing body of law, such as innocent until proven guilty, survives contact with the current Supreme “Thank you again. Won’t forget it” Court is yet to be determined of course.
“We wanted them on the ground first, before a judge could get the case, but this is how it worked out,” said the official.
Yeah, see, that still violates the court order.
The government would still have to return the prisoners to run through the existing justice process here even if they’d been assigned bunks in El Salvador’s slave camp. Because, contrary to administration claims that this is about foreign affairs, this is an immigration issue and until these people are actually CONVICTED of something, the government can only detain them for immigration processing and deport them. They cannot, for example, sell defendants to a foreign prison system!
posted by Absolutely No You-Know-What at 9:30 AM on March 20 [17 favorites]
is it because they're not white?
No. It's because they weigh the same as a duck, so they must be made of wood.
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 AM on March 20 [13 favorites]
No. It's because they weigh the same as a duck, so they must be made of wood.
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 AM on March 20 [13 favorites]
Stalin and the Secret Police would be so, so proud.
posted by pthomas745 at 9:44 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
posted by pthomas745 at 9:44 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
"Give me the facts and I will twist them to fit my argument"
Winston Churchill
posted by robbyrobs at 9:57 AM on March 20
Winston Churchill
posted by robbyrobs at 9:57 AM on March 20
With arguments this thin I wonder why they even bother.
Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
I guess centrists' willingness to expend energy engaging with this bullshit as if it's simply in good faith but misguided is part of it.
So much for the reality-based community.
posted by Reyturner at 10:14 AM on March 20 [7 favorites]
Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
I guess centrists' willingness to expend energy engaging with this bullshit as if it's simply in good faith but misguided is part of it.
So much for the reality-based community.
posted by Reyturner at 10:14 AM on March 20 [7 favorites]
Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
Was that not the point of the ASMR video on the Whitehouse twitter account?
posted by ryanrs at 10:19 AM on March 20 [10 favorites]
Was that not the point of the ASMR video on the Whitehouse twitter account?
posted by ryanrs at 10:19 AM on March 20 [10 favorites]
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague. He needs to start being afraid of EU connecting flights.
posted by ocschwar at 10:20 AM on March 20 [21 favorites]
posted by ocschwar at 10:20 AM on March 20 [21 favorites]
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague.
The Pompatus of Hate.
posted by Grangousier at 10:25 AM on March 20 [35 favorites]
The Pompatus of Hate.
posted by Grangousier at 10:25 AM on March 20 [35 favorites]
Why not just say "we hate these people and revel in their misery" and be done with it?
Bullies aren't content with merely getting their way, they have to also wreck the systems and relationships they force their way in to. Their goal is to center everyone's attention on the contrast between their will and our helplessness. Perverting, rather than being content to merely ignore, "the rules of the game," is part of that.
posted by Western Infidels at 11:14 AM on March 20 [15 favorites]
Bullies aren't content with merely getting their way, they have to also wreck the systems and relationships they force their way in to. Their goal is to center everyone's attention on the contrast between their will and our helplessness. Perverting, rather than being content to merely ignore, "the rules of the game," is part of that.
posted by Western Infidels at 11:14 AM on March 20 [15 favorites]
Not for the first time and not for the last, I remember having discussions with otherwise intelligent people in 2016 wherein they opined, with perfect conviction, "The whole system is rotten! Just burn it down and start over!" And rejected any further conversation about exactly what that would entail, or the impossibility of a Tabula Rasa state of governance, or any other attempt at maintaining a connection to reality.
Alas, the brains of many of our fellow citizens seem to have been cooked in their skulls.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 11:35 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Alas, the brains of many of our fellow citizens seem to have been cooked in their skulls.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 11:35 AM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Yeah, the only thing worse than what we've got is what we'd get if we had to start over in the current timeline. Can you imagine the jockeying of ghouls into position to hijack every shred of civil rights and democratic governance?
posted by Rykey at 11:51 AM on March 20 [2 favorites]
posted by Rykey at 11:51 AM on March 20 [2 favorites]
We already know that several of these deported individuals had no apparent gang ties beyond “having tattoos,” which should concern everyone but especially America’s goth girls.
*cough* Hegseth *cough*
posted by nickmark at 11:54 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
*cough* Hegseth *cough*
posted by nickmark at 11:54 AM on March 20 [5 favorites]
*Tattoos applied to white skin not subject to question or scrutiny*
posted by Rykey at 12:02 PM on March 20 [1 favorite]
posted by Rykey at 12:02 PM on March 20 [1 favorite]
I told them that when a Republican successor started doing the same thing, I hoped people would be honest enough to call it the Obama Doctrine
It's absolutely true that this was wrong when Obama did it to Anwar al-Awlaki.
It's equally true that Donald Trump administration would not have given even .01 of a fuck if Obama had refrained. I mean, just imagine how much Tom Homan and/or Pete Hegseth would laugh if they were told, "But you can't do this! Obama didn't!"
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:06 PM on March 20 [12 favorites]
It's absolutely true that this was wrong when Obama did it to Anwar al-Awlaki.
It's equally true that Donald Trump administration would not have given even .01 of a fuck if Obama had refrained. I mean, just imagine how much Tom Homan and/or Pete Hegseth would laugh if they were told, "But you can't do this! Obama didn't!"
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:06 PM on March 20 [12 favorites]
I mean, I hate Real Madrid as much as any other FC Barcelona fan, but I wouldn't send someone to El Salvador for having a tattoo that looks like Madrid's logo: Man deported to El Salvador under Alien Enemies Act because of soccer logo tattoo:
"Linette Tobin is representing Jerce Reyes Barrios, a professional soccer player from Venezuela who protested the Maduro regime in February and March 2024 and was detained and tortured after one of the demonstrations."
posted by ceejaytee at 12:34 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
"Linette Tobin is representing Jerce Reyes Barrios, a professional soccer player from Venezuela who protested the Maduro regime in February and March 2024 and was detained and tortured after one of the demonstrations."
posted by ceejaytee at 12:34 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
It should go without saying that the government shouldn’t imprison people — here or abroad — without any evidence of criminality
if they ever decide to imprison people who are in actual fact convicted felons, well they know where to start
couchfuckers too, IMHO
posted by chavenet at 1:02 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
if they ever decide to imprison people who are in actual fact convicted felons, well they know where to start
couchfuckers too, IMHO
posted by chavenet at 1:02 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
I mean, just imagine how much Tom Homan and/or Pete Hegseth would laugh if they were told, "But you can't do this! Obama didn't!"
But perhaps we wouldn’t have slid the slippery slope to fascism without the many many greasings of former leaders. And maybe that’s important information to prevent from being memory holed if we ever get out of this mess?
posted by flamk at 1:04 PM on March 20 [9 favorites]
But perhaps we wouldn’t have slid the slippery slope to fascism without the many many greasings of former leaders. And maybe that’s important information to prevent from being memory holed if we ever get out of this mess?
posted by flamk at 1:04 PM on March 20 [9 favorites]
Well, this explains why they think Trump is trustworthy. If no evidence means you're a criminal, then a mountain of evidence must mean the inverse.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:20 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
posted by Sing Or Swim at 1:20 PM on March 20 [4 favorites]
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague
No, he and Holman need to be put into the very same circumstances that they've put these poor souls in.
Raging here.....
posted by WatTylerJr at 1:21 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
No, he and Holman need to be put into the very same circumstances that they've put these poor souls in.
Raging here.....
posted by WatTylerJr at 1:21 PM on March 20 [2 favorites]
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:52 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 1:52 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
Administration Officials Believe Order Lets Immigration Agents Enter Homes Without Warrants
It remains unclear whether the Trump administration will apply the law in this way. But such an interpretation, experts say, would infringe on basic civil liberties.
It remains unclear whether the Trump administration will apply the law in this way. But such an interpretation, experts say, would infringe on basic civil liberties.
Trump administration lawyers have determined that an 18th-century wartime law the president has invoked to deport suspected members of a Venezuelan gang allows federal agents to enter homes without a warrant, according to people familiar with internal discussions.posted by rambling wanderlust at 4:06 PM on March 20
The disclosure reflects the Trump administration’s aggressive view of presidential power, including setting aside a key provision of the Fourth Amendment that requires a court order to search someone’s home.
It remains unclear whether the administration will apply the law in this way, but experts say such an interpretation would infringe on basic civil liberties and raise the potential for misuse. Warrantless entries have some precedent in America’s wartime history, but invoking the law in peacetime to pursue undocumented immigrants in such a way would be an entirely new application, they added.
“It undermines fundamental protections that are recognized in the Fourth Amendment, and in the due process clause,” said Christopher Slobogin, a law professor at Vanderbilt University.
I have a motion up tomorrow and I may argue that since that cop hasn't been arrested before, he's clearly a criminal liar. Can't wait to see what the judge says.
posted by Thrakburzug at 4:19 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
posted by Thrakburzug at 4:19 PM on March 20 [3 favorites]
It's almost as if they're purposefully trying to see how far they have to push things over the cliff before people actually, truly begin to wake up and fight back.
I suppose that's what they actually want, though, so they can justify outright declaring martial law.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:21 PM on March 20
I suppose that's what they actually want, though, so they can justify outright declaring martial law.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:21 PM on March 20
Why bother waiting for a pretext to declare martial law at all?
I keep seeing people say this about the Trump administration trying to make people angry enough to protest so that they can declare martial law and I don't get why. Was it in Project 2025 or something?
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 4:51 PM on March 20
I keep seeing people say this about the Trump administration trying to make people angry enough to protest so that they can declare martial law and I don't get why. Was it in Project 2025 or something?
posted by Nec_variat_lux_fracta_colorem at 4:51 PM on March 20
Steve Miller needs to wind up in the Hague
No, he and Holman need to be put into the very same circumstances that they've put these poor souls in.
First one and then the other my friends.
posted by VTX at 5:06 PM on March 20
No, he and Holman need to be put into the very same circumstances that they've put these poor souls in.
First one and then the other my friends.
posted by VTX at 5:06 PM on March 20
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