Loathe thy neighbor
April 8, 2025 8:31 AM Subscribe
The right-wing war on empathy. No more love thy neighbour as thyself. Evangelical Christians, right-wing academics, and tech-bro extremists agree that the great evil and sin of society today is caring about other people.
Once again, no hate like Christian Nationalist love.
posted by mephron at 8:46 AM on April 8 [35 favorites]
posted by mephron at 8:46 AM on April 8 [35 favorites]
For these thinkers, restoring this masculine culture means feminism and multicultural democracy need to be rooted out.
Sorry, I am going to need some derisive finger-quotes around the word "thinkers" there.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:48 AM on April 8 [52 favorites]
Sorry, I am going to need some derisive finger-quotes around the word "thinkers" there.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:48 AM on April 8 [52 favorites]
Also, I don't recall where I saw it, but someone has mentioned that if you watch Elon carefully when he talks about his daughter Vivian, his attitude isn't that of a man who is angry that one of their kids turned out to be trans. It's more like...
When you learn all of them are conceived via in vitro fertilization, which means he can pretty much pick and choose some of the traits. He almost certainly picked "boys" at the top of the list, so he can have a lot of sons to carry on his "superior genetic traits" as he almost certainly considers it.
He's not an angry parent. He's upset that the product he bought isn't working the way he expected it to.
(Incidentally, Vivian is a lot of fun. I follow her on TikTok.)
posted by mephron at 8:50 AM on April 8 [39 favorites]
When you learn all of them are conceived via in vitro fertilization, which means he can pretty much pick and choose some of the traits. He almost certainly picked "boys" at the top of the list, so he can have a lot of sons to carry on his "superior genetic traits" as he almost certainly considers it.
He's not an angry parent. He's upset that the product he bought isn't working the way he expected it to.
(Incidentally, Vivian is a lot of fun. I follow her on TikTok.)
posted by mephron at 8:50 AM on April 8 [39 favorites]
If not for the widespread presence of empathy in the general population, Trump, Vance, Musk, and many people surrounding them would have all been assassinated by now.
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 8:51 AM on April 8 [19 favorites]
posted by Joan Rivers of Babylon at 8:51 AM on April 8 [19 favorites]
How do you figure? IMO they all just have good security.
posted by Rash at 9:00 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]
posted by Rash at 9:00 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]
i am pretty sure luigi has a whole lot of empathy, along with a rock solid sense of justice
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:05 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:05 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]
Human empathy is WEIRD.
The human ability to grant personhood to non-humans based on cuteness and faces is matched only by the human ability to deny personhood to actual humans who aren't exactly like them.
Human empathy for a single person suffering is often vast and amost overpowering. Human empathy for even a fairly small group, ten or fifteen other humans for example, is close to nonexistent.
Stalin is claimed to have said that one death is a tradgedy but a million is a statstic. He probably never said it, and it's not true. But it's not true only in that the shift from tradgedy to statistic happens around 10 to 15 people and doesn't require a death count anywhere near a million to trigger.
We evolved to be social animals in groups of 200 to 300 individuals. So we're extremely good at empathizing with people we identify as part of our in group, and really shit at empathizing with people we don't identify as part of our in group.
Look, for example, at the way so many people who identified Roman Polanski as part of their in group (that is, Hollywood actors and directors) were willing to spin excuses and cut him slack, and look at things from the most friendly angle to him and the most hostile angle towards his victim. People who, in any other context, would have found it very easy to say "this person is a pedophile rapist and should be treated as such" suddenly found saying that Polanski was the pedophile rapist he admitted to being nearly impossible.
So contrary to Musk's claims, there's not one weird trick to exploit human empathy. There's zillions, the entire system is an ugly kludge that doesn't work right half the time, and it's prone to massive failures when it's most necessary.
And at no level at all does any of the problems with human empaty produce the results he claims.
posted by sotonohito at 9:11 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]
The human ability to grant personhood to non-humans based on cuteness and faces is matched only by the human ability to deny personhood to actual humans who aren't exactly like them.
Human empathy for a single person suffering is often vast and amost overpowering. Human empathy for even a fairly small group, ten or fifteen other humans for example, is close to nonexistent.
Stalin is claimed to have said that one death is a tradgedy but a million is a statstic. He probably never said it, and it's not true. But it's not true only in that the shift from tradgedy to statistic happens around 10 to 15 people and doesn't require a death count anywhere near a million to trigger.
We evolved to be social animals in groups of 200 to 300 individuals. So we're extremely good at empathizing with people we identify as part of our in group, and really shit at empathizing with people we don't identify as part of our in group.
Look, for example, at the way so many people who identified Roman Polanski as part of their in group (that is, Hollywood actors and directors) were willing to spin excuses and cut him slack, and look at things from the most friendly angle to him and the most hostile angle towards his victim. People who, in any other context, would have found it very easy to say "this person is a pedophile rapist and should be treated as such" suddenly found saying that Polanski was the pedophile rapist he admitted to being nearly impossible.
So contrary to Musk's claims, there's not one weird trick to exploit human empathy. There's zillions, the entire system is an ugly kludge that doesn't work right half the time, and it's prone to massive failures when it's most necessary.
And at no level at all does any of the problems with human empaty produce the results he claims.
posted by sotonohito at 9:11 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]
I'm so glad you made this post. I've been reading one of the Canadian conservative reddit subs in the lead-up to our election. I've seen the term 'suicidal empathy' come up several times as the men there try to explain why women's votes skew more to the left. Looking forward to reading this.
posted by kitcat at 9:14 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 9:14 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]
This is what bothers me the most about them, the encouraged indifferent-ness
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:17 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:17 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
The contempt. They're contemptuous.
posted by subdee at 9:19 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]
posted by subdee at 9:19 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]
I definitely feel that people, as a whole, have gotten a lot meaner. It's just that you used to be able to ignore the awful people (for the most part) but now they're in your living room every night on the news, or on your phone when you scroll. Or they are in your grocery store and other unavoidable places.
posted by Kitteh at 9:29 AM on April 8 [15 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 9:29 AM on April 8 [15 favorites]
Racists, assholes and/or conservatives are feeling more freedom to express their mean-ness, is the key thing.
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:36 AM on April 8 [22 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 9:36 AM on April 8 [22 favorites]
Alphabetically speaking, it makes a lot of sense to unleash the War on Empathy after the War on Drugs.
posted by Ashenmote at 9:38 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
posted by Ashenmote at 9:38 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
Alphabetically speaking, it makes a lot of sense to unleash the War on Empathy after the War on Drugs.
And yet, well after the War on Facts.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 9:39 AM on April 8 [17 favorites]
And yet, well after the War on Facts.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 9:39 AM on April 8 [17 favorites]
Conservatives used to at least have the decency to pretend, mostly thru mouthpieces like David Brooks, that their rancid little ideology wasn't all about selfishness and pulling the ladder up behind them.
posted by Gelatin at 9:41 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 9:41 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]
This is just another spin on social Darwinism. Christians and MAGAS and white nationalists believe that they are destined to rule, and in a dog-eat-dog world only the strong survive. This belief excuses eugenics, all of the racism, and all of the shitty lawless things they do because in their zero sum worldview they will never see the advantages of cooperation, mutual aid and "it-takes-a-village". It's hard to have sympathy for them.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:44 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:44 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]
If we're going to work on empathy, let's not make ridiculous false claims about people just because we don't like them. As an IVF parent of an amazing 8-year-old, I'll say: mephron, you are profoundly mistaken about how IVF works. It's not the science fiction gene-modification trait-selection narrative you offer. Please don't demonize people who get help with fertility.
posted by vitia at 9:46 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]
posted by vitia at 9:46 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]
And yet, well after the War on Facts.
Hmmmmmm thanks to that I can now claim that the War on Christmas took place before the War on Drugs and get away with it, right? So it's not all bad for my theory.
posted by Ashenmote at 9:54 AM on April 8
Hmmmmmm thanks to that I can now claim that the War on Christmas took place before the War on Drugs and get away with it, right? So it's not all bad for my theory.
posted by Ashenmote at 9:54 AM on April 8
The whole rise of this "war on empathy" has been astonishing to me - all of this feels like "politics by troll". In the other thread about the problems with the v1.0 US Constitution, I expressed my belief that the problem is that the guard raisl were supposed to be inherently societal. No politician would act that way because it would be out of bounds of decorum. (With acknowledgment that back then those societal rails only really applied to your social equals)
I've watched so many friends (who like me are white cishet dudes) go down this path - usually whinging about how they were now demonized or that they'd be attacked for not always speaking "correctly", etc. It's such a knee jerk defensive reaction and now it's tearing things apart.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:54 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]
I've watched so many friends (who like me are white cishet dudes) go down this path - usually whinging about how they were now demonized or that they'd be attacked for not always speaking "correctly", etc. It's such a knee jerk defensive reaction and now it's tearing things apart.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:54 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]
IVF clinics offering genetic screening is absolutely a thing, especially for the rich and anxious: "Orchid calculates each embryo’s likelihood of one day suffering from any number of the more than 1,200 diseases and conditions"
posted by BungaDunga at 9:54 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 9:54 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]
It almost seems like deep down inside these people subconsciously suspect that what they are doing and saying is wrong and evil, so they invent incredibly convoluted reasons to justify why what they are doing is actually the right and moral thing to do. Of course the "logical" conclusion from that line of upside-down world thought is that anyone that disagrees or doesn't follow their philosophy is evil and immoral.
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:01 AM on April 8 [13 favorites]
posted by fimbulvetr at 10:01 AM on April 8 [13 favorites]
anyway there's a straight line from this to uncut Naziism: feeling bad or squeamish about taking part in genocide is pretty common, so you have to find ways to get people to suppress that.
It's also the plot of The Camp of the Saints: poor migrants are just too sympathetic for the poor, empathetic West to do What Needs To Be Done.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:02 AM on April 8 [10 favorites]
It's also the plot of The Camp of the Saints: poor migrants are just too sympathetic for the poor, empathetic West to do What Needs To Be Done.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:02 AM on April 8 [10 favorites]
A quick googling shows that in addition to pre-implant genetic screening, it's also possible to sort sperm by gender, so that's another option. If Musk only wanted boys, and the moms didn't care, then there are several options.
posted by Spike Glee at 10:03 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
posted by Spike Glee at 10:03 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
Sure seems like these war on empathy people were recently quite upset about the lack of empathy many people had for a certain CEO slain on a Manhattan sidewalk.
posted by house-goblin at 10:04 AM on April 8 [22 favorites]
posted by house-goblin at 10:04 AM on April 8 [22 favorites]
My wife is a very devout christian. She considers herself “evangelical” but mostly because that’s kinda been the catch-all bucket for christians unaffiliated with any actual denomination. But, I have to quickly point out that she’s the flavor of evangelical who simply believes and lives her life according to christ’s teachings. Period. No demands on others. No in-your-face proselytizing. She simply lives her life according to the word, and you dig it, cool. She’s the example I point to when someone goes on a rant about christians.
All this is to say that she is utterly horrified and dismayed at this turn so-called “evangelical christians” have taken. It’s a complete rejection of christ. Luckily, none of this nonsense seems to have infiltrated the church she currently attends.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:07 AM on April 8 [19 favorites]
All this is to say that she is utterly horrified and dismayed at this turn so-called “evangelical christians” have taken. It’s a complete rejection of christ. Luckily, none of this nonsense seems to have infiltrated the church she currently attends.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:07 AM on April 8 [19 favorites]
DOLAN: We're expected to lie about the existence of these hierarchies all of the time.
Hierarchy is at the core of the conservative mindset. I, once again, recommend The Alt-Right Playbook: Always A Bigger Fish which does a great job explaining how liberals and conservatives view the world:
posted by AlSweigart at 10:08 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]
Hierarchy is at the core of the conservative mindset. I, once again, recommend The Alt-Right Playbook: Always A Bigger Fish which does a great job explaining how liberals and conservatives view the world:
"Conservatives are distrustful of any effort to make society more equal because, deep down they don't believe equal societies are real. Obviously, "all citizens created equal" needs to be the government's position, cause you can't trust the government to know where to put people. So it has to treat everyone the same, but this is a legal fiction, like corporate personhood. It just means, the government leaves the market alone so the hierarchy can reveal itself.I could copy the entire transcript, but it's probably easier to just watch the video. He has a follow up video where he points out the direct line of modern day conservative thinkers to pro-monarchy conservatives hundreds of years back, but I can't find that one right now.
You're not supposed to BELIEVE in an equal distribution of power. What are you, seven? This is just the way the world is. Look at alpha wolves. Silverbacks. Consider the lobster.
You are one single individual within a system, and it is your job to rise or fall within it on the sweat of your own back. You don't CHANGE the system. Society's problems come from the rules being too weakly enforced. The answer's always more discipline.
Your conservative friend thinks you're naïve for thinking the system even CAN be changed, and his is the charitable interpretation. Many conservatives assume liberals, at least, the smart liberals, KNOW that the hierarchy is eternal, that there will always be people at the top and people at the bottom. So any claim towards making things equal must be a Trojan horse for something that benefits them. Why would they assume that? Because that's what they do.
(Also, most conservatives are white men, and so are most billionaires.)"
posted by AlSweigart at 10:08 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]
I'm not sure if this is off topic but what Kitteh just wrote makes me think of it. A while back I had an epiphany that went along the lines of: You know how it is a truism that human technology evolved faster than humans? The acme of this used to be nuclear weapons, nowadays I think a much, much better example is social media.
There seems to be a prevalence of sadism in human psychology and the expression of it waxes and wanes with social and historical conditions. Social media, (in the very broadest sense,) runs on outrage or, maybe more simply, rage. I think that a lot of the meaness we see is the flowering of a base proclivity nurtured by a new form of mediated communciation. We used to have gunpowder and yellow journalism now we have nukes and social.
Also, a cursory glance at a streaming service like Netflix reveals the appetite for violent revenge against irredeemable evil in human form.
posted by Pembquist at 10:14 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]
There seems to be a prevalence of sadism in human psychology and the expression of it waxes and wanes with social and historical conditions. Social media, (in the very broadest sense,) runs on outrage or, maybe more simply, rage. I think that a lot of the meaness we see is the flowering of a base proclivity nurtured by a new form of mediated communciation. We used to have gunpowder and yellow journalism now we have nukes and social.
Also, a cursory glance at a streaming service like Netflix reveals the appetite for violent revenge against irredeemable evil in human form.
posted by Pembquist at 10:14 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]
There's no one more un-Christ-like than a White Nationalist Christian.
posted by tommasz at 10:18 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]
posted by tommasz at 10:18 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]
Like I didn't realize they were spouting this as doctrine even while I knew they behaved this way. To cast empathy as evil is flabbergasting.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:24 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:24 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
"Fuck you, got mine" used to be subtext. Then it was text. Now it's just "Fuck you."
posted by Garm at 10:26 AM on April 8 [10 favorites]
posted by Garm at 10:26 AM on April 8 [10 favorites]
I've posted this before but it'd really nice if people could drop the "not really Christians" crap. As a Jew who's immediate family and ancestors have been on the receiving end of Christian love for thousands of years it gets a bit tired. These are Christians. This is Christianity. Always has been.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:31 AM on April 8 [35 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:31 AM on April 8 [35 favorites]
To cast empathy as evil is flabbergasting.
Once you cast it in a "great replacement" lens it makes more sense. If you're too sympathetic to other (usually non-white) people, they will take advantage of you and your children. Therefore empathy is actively dangerous and threatens your family's safety and way of life. It's completely coherent.
It's also the arguably the moral of the "Three Body Problem" book, and any number of thrillers about hard men who have to Do What Society Is Too Weak To Bear. How many times have evil people talked their way into Our Heroes' zombie-apocalypse stronghold and betrayed them? etc
posted by BungaDunga at 10:34 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
Once you cast it in a "great replacement" lens it makes more sense. If you're too sympathetic to other (usually non-white) people, they will take advantage of you and your children. Therefore empathy is actively dangerous and threatens your family's safety and way of life. It's completely coherent.
It's also the arguably the moral of the "Three Body Problem" book, and any number of thrillers about hard men who have to Do What Society Is Too Weak To Bear. How many times have evil people talked their way into Our Heroes' zombie-apocalypse stronghold and betrayed them? etc
posted by BungaDunga at 10:34 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
I feel like the book Radical Candor helped poison a lot of people. If you haven't heard of it, it's one of those 'leadership' books. You know the type, after you read the chapter headings in the table of context you've gotten 95% of the information. The rest is self-congratulator anecdotes, repetition, and self-promotion. The core message is that leaders should direct with their feedback. Also kind. But more importantly very direct feedback because if you don't, nothing will change. But I'm not sure the people who read these books typically wait for permission to share their opinions, so for every person it helped, there are a few jerks using Radical Candor as an excuse to be worse.
Anyway, as typical for these books, there's a chart. And one of the quadrants is 'Ruinous Empathy'. That's the quadrant where you care personally, but don't directly confront issues. I've been hearing empathy used negatively ever since in a lot of business settings. I'm not saying it's the cause, but it certainly helps ease people into this rhetoric.
posted by Garm at 10:40 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]
Anyway, as typical for these books, there's a chart. And one of the quadrants is 'Ruinous Empathy'. That's the quadrant where you care personally, but don't directly confront issues. I've been hearing empathy used negatively ever since in a lot of business settings. I'm not saying it's the cause, but it certainly helps ease people into this rhetoric.
posted by Garm at 10:40 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]
It is not coherent. If you mean in an up is down way then sure.
The article is fascinating and really in depth, I feel I must read it a few more times despite how gross it is.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:40 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
The article is fascinating and really in depth, I feel I must read it a few more times despite how gross it is.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:40 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Once you cast it in a "great replacement" lens it makes more sense.
The irony is that Musk wants to replace workers with robots, making their domestic agenda a cruel plot against the target audience.
posted by Brian B. at 10:42 AM on April 8
The irony is that Musk wants to replace workers with robots, making their domestic agenda a cruel plot against the target audience.
posted by Brian B. at 10:42 AM on April 8
Thanks to everybody who told an IVF dad how IVF works. That's really helpful.
Yes, IVF clinics screen for genetic problems, just like hospitals do for live-birth parents. Fucking duh. Yes, you can determine the sex ahead of time for live-birth parents too. Neither of these is the "Ooh breeding the master race" implied by the comments. Again, fucking duh.
posted by vitia at 10:45 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
Yes, IVF clinics screen for genetic problems, just like hospitals do for live-birth parents. Fucking duh. Yes, you can determine the sex ahead of time for live-birth parents too. Neither of these is the "Ooh breeding the master race" implied by the comments. Again, fucking duh.
posted by vitia at 10:45 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
metafilter: talking out my ass cuz my opinions don't need facts
posted by vitia at 10:46 AM on April 8
posted by vitia at 10:46 AM on April 8
You don't think the richest man in the world didn't have access to the most in-depth genetic screening that ever existed for the IVF of his children? I do, and I think that's all that was trying to be expressed.
The main point is, he definitely thinks of his kids as a product and one was "defective" and therefore disowned.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:50 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]
The main point is, he definitely thinks of his kids as a product and one was "defective" and therefore disowned.
posted by tiny frying pan at 10:50 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]
I knew that provocative Paul Bloom book would be easy for this kind of science-ish cherry-picked misconstrual.
It's essentially an unfortunate matter of mind-science semantics, but he argues for more compassionate, kind, generous, patient people and societies.
posted by Claude Hoeper at 10:53 AM on April 8
It's essentially an unfortunate matter of mind-science semantics, but he argues for more compassionate, kind, generous, patient people and societies.
posted by Claude Hoeper at 10:53 AM on April 8
It's not a good worldview but it is pretty coherent as these things go. Other people outside the in-group are dangerous. Anything that breaks your loyalty to the in-group is therefore also dangerous. Empathy is pretty undirected, so people have to learn to withhold it from the out-group. Therefore "misdirected" empathy is a threat to the in-group, therefore empathy is a threat. Women, children, and anyone else demonstrating dangerous amounts of empathy need to be controlled, for the good of the in-group.
It's not a sane way to run a society, but it all more or less makes sense.
Neither of these is the "Ooh breeding the master race" implied by the comments.
It doesn't stop racists from thinking they can, or are, or at least at some point very soon will. Musk certainly seems to think he is. Orchid is supposedly screening for "neurodevelopmental disorders" including autism. That pronatalist couple who keep going viral also used IVF screening (for, among other things, attempting to select for higher IQ), though in their case they wanted autism.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:54 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
It's not a sane way to run a society, but it all more or less makes sense.
Neither of these is the "Ooh breeding the master race" implied by the comments.
It doesn't stop racists from thinking they can, or are, or at least at some point very soon will. Musk certainly seems to think he is. Orchid is supposedly screening for "neurodevelopmental disorders" including autism. That pronatalist couple who keep going viral also used IVF screening (for, among other things, attempting to select for higher IQ), though in their case they wanted autism.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:54 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
It'd really nice if people could drop the "not really Christians" crap.
As a Christian, co-signing. Sometimes I look at Christofascists and I'm like 'eh I'm not sure I want to be a Christian anymore' but for thousands of years, practically since before they finished writing the fucking Bible, this is what the Church has been like. This is our heritage. We're dicks to people, we've done conquests, we've done genocides, we've done amassing wealth at the cost of human life, we've done corruption, we've done horrific crimes against humanity, and we've never really stopped. I hate it. I'm like 90% sure Christ would hate it. But this is what The Church genuinely is, consistently and for generations - it's power, and it's power to be a dick to people while saying the right words and maybe even fully believing you're doing the right thing. It's abusive, and it's evil, and in large part it's always been this way, and empathetic Christlike people have always been the exception and not the rule.
"Wah it's not us" - stfu, it's us. It's totally us. Who else could it be? Any Christian not actively working against this shit in their own part of the Church and the world is part of it.
posted by ngaiotonga at 10:59 AM on April 8 [32 favorites]
As a Christian, co-signing. Sometimes I look at Christofascists and I'm like 'eh I'm not sure I want to be a Christian anymore' but for thousands of years, practically since before they finished writing the fucking Bible, this is what the Church has been like. This is our heritage. We're dicks to people, we've done conquests, we've done genocides, we've done amassing wealth at the cost of human life, we've done corruption, we've done horrific crimes against humanity, and we've never really stopped. I hate it. I'm like 90% sure Christ would hate it. But this is what The Church genuinely is, consistently and for generations - it's power, and it's power to be a dick to people while saying the right words and maybe even fully believing you're doing the right thing. It's abusive, and it's evil, and in large part it's always been this way, and empathetic Christlike people have always been the exception and not the rule.
"Wah it's not us" - stfu, it's us. It's totally us. Who else could it be? Any Christian not actively working against this shit in their own part of the Church and the world is part of it.
posted by ngaiotonga at 10:59 AM on April 8 [32 favorites]
BungaDunga, you can stop explaining the article, I read it, thanks.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:04 AM on April 8
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:04 AM on April 8
Here is the direct quotation: "all of them are conceived via in vitro fertilization, which means he can pretty much pick and choose some of the traits."
No, that is not what IVF means. Let's review: we're discussing an article about empathy and the Christian right's bizarre and anti-Christian twisting of Jesus's message of compassion toward others and understanding their situation—and Metafilter commenters use the occasion to engage guilt-by-association rhetoric that operates on the fundamental assumption that people who need to use IVF "pick and choose" designer babies.
I'm sorry for those who have difficulty moving beyond publicly sharing their received opinions as a form of virtue-signaling that they dislike the correct people in order to smear everybody associated with a quality they demonstrably know little about. My son, Malcolm, is my "miracle baby"—the one embryo out of nine who made it, and my only chance at fatherhood. You wanna talk shit about me and mine, I will respond to your willful ignorance with considerable vigor.
posted by vitia at 11:15 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]
No, that is not what IVF means. Let's review: we're discussing an article about empathy and the Christian right's bizarre and anti-Christian twisting of Jesus's message of compassion toward others and understanding their situation—and Metafilter commenters use the occasion to engage guilt-by-association rhetoric that operates on the fundamental assumption that people who need to use IVF "pick and choose" designer babies.
I'm sorry for those who have difficulty moving beyond publicly sharing their received opinions as a form of virtue-signaling that they dislike the correct people in order to smear everybody associated with a quality they demonstrably know little about. My son, Malcolm, is my "miracle baby"—the one embryo out of nine who made it, and my only chance at fatherhood. You wanna talk shit about me and mine, I will respond to your willful ignorance with considerable vigor.
posted by vitia at 11:15 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]
that people who need to use IVF "pick and choose" designer babies.
I know nothing about but this subject as I read the statement, the commenter is saying that IVF enables Elon Musk to pick and choose some of the traits of his kids. I think this is true? Its not saying, anyone who does IVF can, or anyone who does IVF will.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:20 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]
I know nothing about but this subject as I read the statement, the commenter is saying that IVF enables Elon Musk to pick and choose some of the traits of his kids. I think this is true? Its not saying, anyone who does IVF can, or anyone who does IVF will.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:20 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]
"Polygenic embryo screening" seems like it would have been available to him. It's not at a level to guarantee anything, and the quoted part is a simplication, but I'm sure he did more than any other human could afford or was even offered. Money and no ethics buys a lot.
I didn't think of it as a slam or dig on IVF parents but as a dig on Elon's ethics and I'm sorry it made you feel that way.
I doubt anyone here thinks ill of those who needed to use IVF to conceive.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:22 AM on April 8 [11 favorites]
I didn't think of it as a slam or dig on IVF parents but as a dig on Elon's ethics and I'm sorry it made you feel that way.
I doubt anyone here thinks ill of those who needed to use IVF to conceive.
posted by tiny frying pan at 11:22 AM on April 8 [11 favorites]
These are Christians. This is Christianity. Always has been.
Yep, far as I can tell the practice and power of Christianity has fuck all to do with Jesus' teachings.
Look, if Christians want to be seen as anything other than fascist terrorists trying to overthrow my government for transphobic/white supremacist goals, they should spend the effort to take care of their fascist terrorist problem.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:23 AM on April 8 [11 favorites]
Yep, far as I can tell the practice and power of Christianity has fuck all to do with Jesus' teachings.
Look, if Christians want to be seen as anything other than fascist terrorists trying to overthrow my government for transphobic/white supremacist goals, they should spend the effort to take care of their fascist terrorist problem.
posted by SaltySalticid at 11:23 AM on April 8 [11 favorites]
When the shit that comes out your mouth makes you sound like Ash from fucking Alien, you're probably wrong.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:24 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:24 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]
ngaiotonga: "It'd really nice if people could drop the "not really Christians" crap.
"Wah it's not us" - stfu, it's us. It's totally us. Who else could it be? Any Christian not actively working against this shit in their own part of the Church and the world is part of it."
THANK YOU. I've heard of several instances of Christians speaking out against this - some even Pastors - but they're speaking to their own congregations, or to their friends. And - that is the very literal definition of preaching to the converted, and it isn't going to do jack.
So - Christians, do you WANT to have this be your calling card in the word? No? Then get off your asses and talk to the perpetrators. I know from growing up Catholic that this is absolute bullshit, and I've been waiting for more pushback from current Christians and not seeing it. I've seen lots of Christians tut-tutting to themselves about it, but no one speaking up and causing a stink.
I've also once or twice asked some Christians "why the hell DON'T you say something" and a couple have said that they're reluctant to "judge". Which is well and good - but it's possible to speak up in defense of your faith and your creed without casting judgement on people who are maligning it, for God's sake. Right now, the only people who say they have the last word on your faith are these assholes - and your silence is saying more than you think it is.
If you are an evangelical Christian, I'm begging you, please speak up.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]
"Wah it's not us" - stfu, it's us. It's totally us. Who else could it be? Any Christian not actively working against this shit in their own part of the Church and the world is part of it."
THANK YOU. I've heard of several instances of Christians speaking out against this - some even Pastors - but they're speaking to their own congregations, or to their friends. And - that is the very literal definition of preaching to the converted, and it isn't going to do jack.
So - Christians, do you WANT to have this be your calling card in the word? No? Then get off your asses and talk to the perpetrators. I know from growing up Catholic that this is absolute bullshit, and I've been waiting for more pushback from current Christians and not seeing it. I've seen lots of Christians tut-tutting to themselves about it, but no one speaking up and causing a stink.
I've also once or twice asked some Christians "why the hell DON'T you say something" and a couple have said that they're reluctant to "judge". Which is well and good - but it's possible to speak up in defense of your faith and your creed without casting judgement on people who are maligning it, for God's sake. Right now, the only people who say they have the last word on your faith are these assholes - and your silence is saying more than you think it is.
If you are an evangelical Christian, I'm begging you, please speak up.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:33 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]
Again: this IVF dad can tell you that "polygenic embryo screening" is available to all parents. It kind of amazes me to see commenters on left-leaning MetaFilter borrowing heavily from Republican anti-IVF talking points because of the relative ease of making implicit ad hominem arguments that rely on guilt by association. There are many parents who want to know ahead of time what their life with their as-yet-unborn-child will look like. If you're familiar with this, as a parent, then you know what I'm talking about. If you're not a parent and don't know about the challenges and heartbreak of infertility, maybe take a pass on recycling that stuff that you "don't know where [you] saw it" and that "almost certainly" reinforces the confirmation bias of your received opinions.
posted by vitia at 11:40 AM on April 8
posted by vitia at 11:40 AM on April 8
Conceptually, this is completely reasonable. I want an empathetic doctor, but I don't want my surgeon to have so much empathy that she flinches when cutting me. I want an empathetic judge, but I don't want my judge to have so much empathy that he frees a dangerous and violent felon.
The problem is that it's meaningless: Any position can be justified by saying that it's justified by empathy, or you can oppose it because, even though it's motivated by empathy, it would result in (what you consider) unjust outcomes.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:42 AM on April 8
The problem is that it's meaningless: Any position can be justified by saying that it's justified by empathy, or you can oppose it because, even though it's motivated by empathy, it would result in (what you consider) unjust outcomes.
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 11:42 AM on April 8
Part of me wishes I wish I'd gotten here before this derailed into a discussion of Musk/IVF. But the reality is, it doesn't matter because all I've got is hollow laughter at the sheer hypocrisy of an empathy-less Left that eats it own and savages anyone who dares to agree with them only 99%.
NO DEBATE necessarily requires NO EMPATHY for anyone who is not completely utterly blindly in lockstep with you on every single issue that exists or ever will or hypothetically might.
posted by CyberSlug Labs at 11:57 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
NO DEBATE necessarily requires NO EMPATHY for anyone who is not completely utterly blindly in lockstep with you on every single issue that exists or ever will or hypothetically might.
posted by CyberSlug Labs at 11:57 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
You didn't engage with the article either!
Let's re-rail:
Susan Lanzoni, a historian of psychology and author of Empathy: A History, said by email that through all her research into the intellectual history of empathy, she had “never seen empathy vilified in the way it has been in these current sources”.
“The disparagement of empathy is the flip side, I believe, of a deliberate effort to set up a permission structure to dehumanize others, and to narrow the definition of who should be included in a democratic state, or in a Christian community,” she said. “To me, this disparagement marks a step in the destruction of our multicultural democracy, and provides a path from the verbal dehumanization of others to open discrimination and maltreatment.”
Indeed, the rightwing critique of empathy is not an attempt to find a better way to achieve altruistic ends; it’s an excuse to turn away from altruism entirely. We are witnessing the construction of the ideological architecture to excuse violence and suffering on a mass scale. While the religious right attends to a moral justification, the secular right is hard at work on a pseudoscientific one. Meanwhile, the Maga movement has created an online culture that is steeped in an aesthetic of anti-empathy, from dismissing fellow human beings as “NPCs” (or non-player characters) to joking about relaxing to the “ASMR” sounds of human bondage.
This passage, "a permission structure to dehumanize others, and to narrow the definition of who should be included in a democratic state, or in a Christian community,” is really even too light - they want to define who has a right to LIVE, in many instances. I think the words "permission structure" is indeed a snowball thing they've been working on for a very long while. The old phrase "welfare queens" comes to mind.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:04 PM on April 8 [14 favorites]
Let's re-rail:
Susan Lanzoni, a historian of psychology and author of Empathy: A History, said by email that through all her research into the intellectual history of empathy, she had “never seen empathy vilified in the way it has been in these current sources”.
“The disparagement of empathy is the flip side, I believe, of a deliberate effort to set up a permission structure to dehumanize others, and to narrow the definition of who should be included in a democratic state, or in a Christian community,” she said. “To me, this disparagement marks a step in the destruction of our multicultural democracy, and provides a path from the verbal dehumanization of others to open discrimination and maltreatment.”
Indeed, the rightwing critique of empathy is not an attempt to find a better way to achieve altruistic ends; it’s an excuse to turn away from altruism entirely. We are witnessing the construction of the ideological architecture to excuse violence and suffering on a mass scale. While the religious right attends to a moral justification, the secular right is hard at work on a pseudoscientific one. Meanwhile, the Maga movement has created an online culture that is steeped in an aesthetic of anti-empathy, from dismissing fellow human beings as “NPCs” (or non-player characters) to joking about relaxing to the “ASMR” sounds of human bondage.
This passage, "a permission structure to dehumanize others, and to narrow the definition of who should be included in a democratic state, or in a Christian community,” is really even too light - they want to define who has a right to LIVE, in many instances. I think the words "permission structure" is indeed a snowball thing they've been working on for a very long while. The old phrase "welfare queens" comes to mind.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:04 PM on April 8 [14 favorites]
Conceptually, this is completely reasonable. I want an empathetic doctor, but I don't want my surgeon to have so much empathy that she flinches when cutting me. I want an empathetic judge, but I don't want my judge to have so much empathy that he frees a dangerous and violent felon.
I disagree.
I want an empathetic doctor who understands that their treatments are inflicting pain and channels that empathy into improving patient care. I want an empathetic judge who follows the law but still cares about the treatment of prisoners.
Just feeling empathy towards someone doesn't mean you're automatically compelled to act upon that empathy. It's entirely possible to feel someone else's pain while still performing your duties to uphold the law or seek self preservation. Judges, doctors, lawyers, social workers do this all the time!
I think the most sinister part of this War on Empathy is that it creates the idea that one can have too much empathy--that some people are automatically disqualified from performing a job or holding an office or making an impartial decision because they're unable to put their emotions aside and act rationally.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:22 PM on April 8 [16 favorites]
I disagree.
I want an empathetic doctor who understands that their treatments are inflicting pain and channels that empathy into improving patient care. I want an empathetic judge who follows the law but still cares about the treatment of prisoners.
Just feeling empathy towards someone doesn't mean you're automatically compelled to act upon that empathy. It's entirely possible to feel someone else's pain while still performing your duties to uphold the law or seek self preservation. Judges, doctors, lawyers, social workers do this all the time!
I think the most sinister part of this War on Empathy is that it creates the idea that one can have too much empathy--that some people are automatically disqualified from performing a job or holding an office or making an impartial decision because they're unable to put their emotions aside and act rationally.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:22 PM on April 8 [16 favorites]
Yes! The article also expressly states what so many of them think - that women, ALL WOMEN, are "too empathetic" and not rational and therefore shouldn't hold any roles like judge or priest or doctor or politician.
As if it's rational to discard empathy.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:29 PM on April 8 [11 favorites]
As if it's rational to discard empathy.
posted by tiny frying pan at 12:29 PM on April 8 [11 favorites]
Scary article. I think the kind of innoculation the article discusses - preparing your folloewers to accept mass violence and death of the other - you can also see in the social media conspiracy theory -> Nazi pipeline.
That is, once you get the audience sympathetic to the Nazis and thinking maybe Hitler made some Good points, actually, they will no longer be alarmed when their own government starts rapidly turning fascist.
posted by subdee at 12:30 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
That is, once you get the audience sympathetic to the Nazis and thinking maybe Hitler made some Good points, actually, they will no longer be alarmed when their own government starts rapidly turning fascist.
posted by subdee at 12:30 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
I'm wondering to what degree the glut of Silicon Valley "rationalism" has fed back into this phenomena. Which now feeds back into the church via JD and his ilk of.
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 12:43 PM on April 8 [4 favorites]
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 12:43 PM on April 8 [4 favorites]
AlSweigart, is this the video tracing modern conservatism back to monarchists you were thinking of?
posted by TedW at 12:45 PM on April 8
posted by TedW at 12:45 PM on April 8
My pet theory is that 2 years of COVID restrictions broke millions of people's empathy muscles. They got tired of caring about Grandpa while having to stay home, lose work, and sit with their resentment. For them, politics is now about declaring as loudly as possible that "no one can tell me what to do anymore".
posted by Popular Ethics at 1:05 PM on April 8 [9 favorites]
posted by Popular Ethics at 1:05 PM on April 8 [9 favorites]
What strategies have been shown effective in shutting down this anti-empanthy in conversation? Or in public discourse? I mean I know in this context I’m kinda asking for tips to outperform Jesus Christ, but people are people, and thus we’re susceptible to psychological manipulation in either direction—either towards or away from empathy—and there’s got to be things to help our neighbors come back from the void
posted by Jon_Evil at 1:32 PM on April 8 [4 favorites]
posted by Jon_Evil at 1:32 PM on April 8 [4 favorites]
I remember saying in the past that it weren't for the holocaust thing that Hitler actually did some good things for Germany.
Then I turned 13.
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:33 PM on April 8 [2 favorites]
Then I turned 13.
posted by drewbage1847 at 1:33 PM on April 8 [2 favorites]
There is a clear path from Umberto Eco's list of the 14 common features of fascism to a claim that "empathy is evil":
1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
7. The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:37 PM on April 8 [11 favorites]
1. The cult of tradition. “One has only to look at the syllabus of every fascist movement to find the major traditionalist thinkers. The Nazi gnosis was nourished by traditionalist, syncretistic, occult elements.”
2. The rejection of modernism. “The Enlightenment, the Age of Reason, is seen as the beginning of modern depravity. In this sense Ur-Fascism can be defined as irrationalism.”
3. The cult of action for action’s sake. “Action being beautiful in itself, it must be taken before, or without, any previous reflection. Thinking is a form of emasculation.”
4. Disagreement is treason. “The critical spirit makes distinctions, and to distinguish is a sign of modernism. In modern culture the scientific community praises disagreement as a way to improve knowledge.”
5. Fear of difference. “The first appeal of a fascist or prematurely fascist movement is an appeal against the intruders. Thus Ur-Fascism is racist by definition.”
6. Appeal to social frustration. “One of the most typical features of the historical fascism was the appeal to a frustrated middle class, a class suffering from an economic crisis or feelings of political humiliation, and frightened by the pressure of lower social groups.”
7. The obsession with a plot. “Thus at the root of the Ur-Fascist psychology there is the obsession with a plot, possibly an international one. The followers must feel besieged.”
8. The enemy is both strong and weak. “By a continuous shifting of rhetorical focus, the enemies are at the same time too strong and too weak.”
9. Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy. “For Ur-Fascism there is no struggle for life but, rather, life is lived for struggle.”
10. Contempt for the weak. “Elitism is a typical aspect of any reactionary ideology.”
11. Everybody is educated to become a hero. “In Ur-Fascist ideology, heroism is the norm. This cult of heroism is strictly linked with the cult of death.”
12. Machismo and weaponry. “Machismo implies both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality.”
13. Selective populism. “There is in our future a TV or Internet populism, in which the emotional response of a selected group of citizens can be presented and accepted as the Voice of the People.”
14. Ur-Fascism speaks Newspeak. “All the Nazi or Fascist schoolbooks made use of an impoverished vocabulary, and an elementary syntax, in order to limit the instruments for complex and critical reasoning.”
posted by fimbulvetr at 1:37 PM on April 8 [11 favorites]
I am happy to not offer any empathy or sympathy or support to those who wilfully refuse to reciprocate.
Game theory 101.
Let them find out the hard way just how fundamental mutually beneficial cooperation is to society. It is our superpower, not our super weakness.
posted by Pouteria at 1:51 PM on April 8
Game theory 101.
Let them find out the hard way just how fundamental mutually beneficial cooperation is to society. It is our superpower, not our super weakness.
posted by Pouteria at 1:51 PM on April 8
These supposed intellectuals and thinkers seem to overlook the fact that, without empathy, there is no such thing as civilization. In order for civilization (even "Western Civilization" that they supposedly adore) to occur and to be maintained, empathy is required.
Dumbasses.
posted by grubi at 1:55 PM on April 8 [5 favorites]
Dumbasses.
posted by grubi at 1:55 PM on April 8 [5 favorites]
My pet theory is that 2 years of COVID restrictions broke millions of people's empathy muscles.
Here in NYC it definitely seems to have killed subway etiquette. I don't mean criminal activity but stuff like waiting for passengers to exit before boarding, moving to the center of the car, not blocking the doors, etc. I have no real way to prove this but I strongly feel that people were better about these things pre-COVID. It feels like after the lockdowns everyone's a lot more self-focused and not caring about being rude or pushy.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:19 PM on April 8 [8 favorites]
Here in NYC it definitely seems to have killed subway etiquette. I don't mean criminal activity but stuff like waiting for passengers to exit before boarding, moving to the center of the car, not blocking the doors, etc. I have no real way to prove this but I strongly feel that people were better about these things pre-COVID. It feels like after the lockdowns everyone's a lot more self-focused and not caring about being rude or pushy.
posted by star gentle uterus at 2:19 PM on April 8 [8 favorites]
I have an uncle by marriage who one day posted about the transformative power of kindness and the next day posted a really nasty screed about 'pieces of shit' who have 'too much empathy for illegals' and then started making even less sense talking about how they take our money to smoke fentanyl or something.
And yes he is ofc a Christian. I dont know that anything could reach him. I was tempted to reply with what Jesus said about how to treat foreigners but he already thinks I am 'over educated' and I know whatever may change his mind can't come from me.
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:01 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
And yes he is ofc a Christian. I dont know that anything could reach him. I was tempted to reply with what Jesus said about how to treat foreigners but he already thinks I am 'over educated' and I know whatever may change his mind can't come from me.
posted by SaltySalticid at 3:01 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Here in NYC it definitely seems to have killed subway etiquette. I don't mean criminal activity but stuff like waiting for passengers to exit before boarding, moving to the center of the car, not blocking the doors, etc. I have no real way to prove this but I strongly feel that people were better about these things pre-COVID.
They weren't. I speak from experience.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:06 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
They weren't. I speak from experience.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:06 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
So - Christians, do you WANT to have this be your calling card in the word? No? Then get off your asses and talk to the perpetrators. I know from growing up Catholic that this is absolute bullshit, and I've been waiting for more pushback from current Christians and not seeing it.
The response of most Christians I know, including myself, is to stop being Christian. I think there has in fact been an enormous amount of push back over the past few decades but that response is shown in church attendance numbers.
posted by deadwax at 3:10 PM on April 8 [3 favorites]
The response of most Christians I know, including myself, is to stop being Christian. I think there has in fact been an enormous amount of push back over the past few decades but that response is shown in church attendance numbers.
posted by deadwax at 3:10 PM on April 8 [3 favorites]
I have increasingly come to believe in a pretty simple pet theory of my own that helps me explain and understand the world around me:
Power makes people stupid.
To be clear: This is not merely a correlation, I am explicitly asserting a causal relationship here. Having power, wielding power, it fucks up your brain and makes you dumber, slowly but cumulatively, over time.
I am not a neuroscientist and I hesitate to indulge in evo-psych thinking because I've seen how many times that just gets used to prop up bullshit. And yet: It seems pretty obvious to me that our brains are, at their most elementary, machines for Fucking Around and Finding Out. That's what they do! Millions of years of evolution to produce the very finest machines at observing and recording What Happens when you Fuck Around. And "power" -- almost by definition -- is the ability to Fuck Around and make other people do the Finding Out. You're insulated from the consequences of your own actions, the universe's response to your fucking around gets filtered through layers and layers of other people before it gets back to you. And I think it breaks something in our monkey brains - in some basic, primitive way, we expect "do thing, see result" and no "do thing, hear from our favorite yes-man that it was a great idea, never see or feel any actual consequences from doing thing, ever" and in the absence of that feedback something goes seriously off-the-rails in our minds. And the effect seems to be cumulative.
And I look at the behavior of the richest, most powerful people in the world, and you can almost see the hole in their brains. The empty void where the feedback for their behavior should go, the escalating attempts to do crazier and more extreme things in a desperate search for feedback that can't be dulled or escaped to fill that hole with. Drug use? Rampant - but not the "dull the pain / escape from misery" types of drugs that are commonplace in the lower classes**, but the "here's an extreme sensation that will make you feel things" kinds of drugs. Or just extreme ventures - base jumping, taking a jury-rigged submarine to see the Titanic, obsessing with space travel - always pushing themselves to extremes where the feedback their brain expects, that their brain craves, is direct, straight-from-the-universe and inescapable.
When people ask hypotheticals like "What thing that everyone takes for granted nowadays do you think people will find horrifying in the future?", that's my answer. Not just granting people unregulated, immense amounts of power for decades at a go, but actually idolizing those people, thinking they're smarter or better than the rest of us when in fact they are obviously massively more brain-damaged than the rest of us. Someday in the far flung future, I imagine a more enlightened human race will treat wielding great power as something similar to handling highly-radioactive material - you may do it briefly for a short time in the pursuit of a greater good, but you'll want to take precautions, avoid prolonged exposure and get treatment afterwards.
But people in power having no concept of the consequences of their decisions - and making stupid, bad decisions as a result of it - is far from a new problem; it's been around as long as their have been tribal leaders, I expect. Certainly it's been around long enough for ancient myths and fairy tales to have a lot to say on the subject. And one of the common solutions in those ancient fairy tales? Empathy. The sultan dresses up like a beggar; the princess dresses up like a peasant; they walk a mile in other peoples' shoes and they see how foolish they were, once they are no longer insulated by all their power and wealth. They become wiser for their experience - maybe not permanently, but at least temporarily.
And that tracks, to me. Empathy may not stop people in power from getting dumber, over a long enough time period (exact timeframes, and inferences about gerontocracy, are left as an exercise for the reader), but it sure seems to drastically slow the progression. Care about other people, and you'll make better decisions for a longer time.
It's no surprise to me then, that Elon Musk - wielding absolutely unprecedented levels of power while simultaneously scoffing at the practice of empathy - is doing an epic speedrun from being widely perceived as a genius (correct or not, he was at least smart enough to appear smart to a casual observer) to being widely regarded as one of the dumbest, most irresponsible idiots in existence. I'm certainly not enjoying his speed run, but nothing about it surprises me.
**(There's a whole corollary to this theory, about how if power is making other people find out the consequences of your actions, than powerlessness is about constantly having to deal with consequences of choices and actions that other people made. And there's a further point beyond that, about how the concept of "personal responsibility" peaks in the middle class - where peoples' actions chiefly influence only themselves and their immediate circle. But this comment is long enough and tangential-to-the-topic enough already.)
posted by mstokes650 at 3:13 PM on April 8 [9 favorites]
Power makes people stupid.
To be clear: This is not merely a correlation, I am explicitly asserting a causal relationship here. Having power, wielding power, it fucks up your brain and makes you dumber, slowly but cumulatively, over time.
I am not a neuroscientist and I hesitate to indulge in evo-psych thinking because I've seen how many times that just gets used to prop up bullshit. And yet: It seems pretty obvious to me that our brains are, at their most elementary, machines for Fucking Around and Finding Out. That's what they do! Millions of years of evolution to produce the very finest machines at observing and recording What Happens when you Fuck Around. And "power" -- almost by definition -- is the ability to Fuck Around and make other people do the Finding Out. You're insulated from the consequences of your own actions, the universe's response to your fucking around gets filtered through layers and layers of other people before it gets back to you. And I think it breaks something in our monkey brains - in some basic, primitive way, we expect "do thing, see result" and no "do thing, hear from our favorite yes-man that it was a great idea, never see or feel any actual consequences from doing thing, ever" and in the absence of that feedback something goes seriously off-the-rails in our minds. And the effect seems to be cumulative.
And I look at the behavior of the richest, most powerful people in the world, and you can almost see the hole in their brains. The empty void where the feedback for their behavior should go, the escalating attempts to do crazier and more extreme things in a desperate search for feedback that can't be dulled or escaped to fill that hole with. Drug use? Rampant - but not the "dull the pain / escape from misery" types of drugs that are commonplace in the lower classes**, but the "here's an extreme sensation that will make you feel things" kinds of drugs. Or just extreme ventures - base jumping, taking a jury-rigged submarine to see the Titanic, obsessing with space travel - always pushing themselves to extremes where the feedback their brain expects, that their brain craves, is direct, straight-from-the-universe and inescapable.
When people ask hypotheticals like "What thing that everyone takes for granted nowadays do you think people will find horrifying in the future?", that's my answer. Not just granting people unregulated, immense amounts of power for decades at a go, but actually idolizing those people, thinking they're smarter or better than the rest of us when in fact they are obviously massively more brain-damaged than the rest of us. Someday in the far flung future, I imagine a more enlightened human race will treat wielding great power as something similar to handling highly-radioactive material - you may do it briefly for a short time in the pursuit of a greater good, but you'll want to take precautions, avoid prolonged exposure and get treatment afterwards.
But people in power having no concept of the consequences of their decisions - and making stupid, bad decisions as a result of it - is far from a new problem; it's been around as long as their have been tribal leaders, I expect. Certainly it's been around long enough for ancient myths and fairy tales to have a lot to say on the subject. And one of the common solutions in those ancient fairy tales? Empathy. The sultan dresses up like a beggar; the princess dresses up like a peasant; they walk a mile in other peoples' shoes and they see how foolish they were, once they are no longer insulated by all their power and wealth. They become wiser for their experience - maybe not permanently, but at least temporarily.
And that tracks, to me. Empathy may not stop people in power from getting dumber, over a long enough time period (exact timeframes, and inferences about gerontocracy, are left as an exercise for the reader), but it sure seems to drastically slow the progression. Care about other people, and you'll make better decisions for a longer time.
It's no surprise to me then, that Elon Musk - wielding absolutely unprecedented levels of power while simultaneously scoffing at the practice of empathy - is doing an epic speedrun from being widely perceived as a genius (correct or not, he was at least smart enough to appear smart to a casual observer) to being widely regarded as one of the dumbest, most irresponsible idiots in existence. I'm certainly not enjoying his speed run, but nothing about it surprises me.
**(There's a whole corollary to this theory, about how if power is making other people find out the consequences of your actions, than powerlessness is about constantly having to deal with consequences of choices and actions that other people made. And there's a further point beyond that, about how the concept of "personal responsibility" peaks in the middle class - where peoples' actions chiefly influence only themselves and their immediate circle. But this comment is long enough and tangential-to-the-topic enough already.)
posted by mstokes650 at 3:13 PM on April 8 [9 favorites]
We evolved to be social animals in groups of 200 to 300 individuals. So we're extremely good at empathizing with people we identify as part of our in group, and really shit at empathizing with people we don't identify as part of our in group.
Garbage evopsych no matter where one stands on empathy or politics.
posted by Rumple at 3:27 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Garbage evopsych no matter where one stands on empathy or politics.
posted by Rumple at 3:27 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
I posted this comment here over two years ago:
The idea that kids may grow up with empathy is definitely a problem for the right, and has been for a long time. I remember seeing a flyer (it might even have been passed out at a school) in the 90s that was titled "Signs That Your Child Might Be on Drugs" and it was a long list of things like "being overly concerned about global warming" "giving money to homeless people" and "worrying about inequality". I fucking kid you not. The right has been trying to pathologize empathy, humanity, and caring of any kind for decades because it fucks up their agenda. It's why I have no truck with people who think conservatives didn't use to be as bad as they are now WRT cranking up hatred and division. They just used to be more subtle about it.
I do agree that social media has really accelerated this: how many people here have experienced being upvoted or favorited for saying something mean? It's the coin of the realm for a lot of people who would never have bothered to sit down and write a letter to the editor, but can dash off a hot take in 30 seconds that gives a nice endorphin rush. Even if there aren't nazis there, BlueSky is generally a very unkind place. I don't know how you get past all the anger and blame right now on the "blue" side in order to defeat fascists- something I've been thinking about since reading What to Do If the Insurrection Act is Invoked. While humor is part of resistance, another part is being kind and caring for each other, and I'm not sure if enough anti-fascists can manage that. People completely misreading each other in this thread and not giving the benefit of the doubt is a perfect example.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:33 PM on April 8
The idea that kids may grow up with empathy is definitely a problem for the right, and has been for a long time. I remember seeing a flyer (it might even have been passed out at a school) in the 90s that was titled "Signs That Your Child Might Be on Drugs" and it was a long list of things like "being overly concerned about global warming" "giving money to homeless people" and "worrying about inequality". I fucking kid you not. The right has been trying to pathologize empathy, humanity, and caring of any kind for decades because it fucks up their agenda. It's why I have no truck with people who think conservatives didn't use to be as bad as they are now WRT cranking up hatred and division. They just used to be more subtle about it.
I do agree that social media has really accelerated this: how many people here have experienced being upvoted or favorited for saying something mean? It's the coin of the realm for a lot of people who would never have bothered to sit down and write a letter to the editor, but can dash off a hot take in 30 seconds that gives a nice endorphin rush. Even if there aren't nazis there, BlueSky is generally a very unkind place. I don't know how you get past all the anger and blame right now on the "blue" side in order to defeat fascists- something I've been thinking about since reading What to Do If the Insurrection Act is Invoked. While humor is part of resistance, another part is being kind and caring for each other, and I'm not sure if enough anti-fascists can manage that. People completely misreading each other in this thread and not giving the benefit of the doubt is a perfect example.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:33 PM on April 8
Here in NYC it definitely seems to have killed subway etiquette. I don't mean criminal activity but stuff like waiting for passengers to exit before boarding, moving to the center of the car, not blocking the doors, etc. I have no real way to prove this but I strongly feel that people were better about these things pre-COVID.
This is my experience in the SF/Bay Area too. I distinctly remember a time when people didn't stand directly in front of the exit doors, trying to push in while others were exiting.
posted by ishmael at 3:48 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
This is my experience in the SF/Bay Area too. I distinctly remember a time when people didn't stand directly in front of the exit doors, trying to push in while others were exiting.
posted by ishmael at 3:48 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Power makes people stupid.
Celine's second principle: Communication is only possible between equals. When there is a power disparity, the weaker person is always pressured to present information in a way that will minimize harm to themselves, in a way that flatters or doesn't challenge the more powerful person. This compounds between layers of hierarchy until the powerful have a totally distorted view of reality and the consequences of their actions.
posted by Garm at 4:05 PM on April 8 [6 favorites]
Celine's second principle: Communication is only possible between equals. When there is a power disparity, the weaker person is always pressured to present information in a way that will minimize harm to themselves, in a way that flatters or doesn't challenge the more powerful person. This compounds between layers of hierarchy until the powerful have a totally distorted view of reality and the consequences of their actions.
posted by Garm at 4:05 PM on April 8 [6 favorites]
Celine's second principle: Communication is only possible between equals.
Not inaccurate, but what I see happening is something a little deeper than that - that great wealth and power results in something more akin to sensory deprivation. Not just because your underlings and yes-men tell you what you want to hear, because even if they were completely unsparingly honest with you, the truth of your actions still wouldn't affect you unless you chose to care.
Like: Imagine you wake up tomorrow, and although the world around you looks the same, upon touching anything, you discover it has no more substance, mass, or structural integrity than cotton candy. How long before you're tearing a wildly destructive path through everything, both desperately searching for something that's sturdy, something that feels real, while simultaneously completely disregarding the damage to all the cotton-candy-like structures you're destroying because they have no weight, no impact, they don't seem like they're real or like they could possibly matter? (That's basically what Elon's doing to our federal government right now.) To wield such disproportionately great power in the world is something like that, I think, though the powerful don't wake up overnight like that, it's a gradual process by which the weight and consequence of the world around them disappears.
posted by mstokes650 at 4:32 PM on April 8 [4 favorites]
Not inaccurate, but what I see happening is something a little deeper than that - that great wealth and power results in something more akin to sensory deprivation. Not just because your underlings and yes-men tell you what you want to hear, because even if they were completely unsparingly honest with you, the truth of your actions still wouldn't affect you unless you chose to care.
Like: Imagine you wake up tomorrow, and although the world around you looks the same, upon touching anything, you discover it has no more substance, mass, or structural integrity than cotton candy. How long before you're tearing a wildly destructive path through everything, both desperately searching for something that's sturdy, something that feels real, while simultaneously completely disregarding the damage to all the cotton-candy-like structures you're destroying because they have no weight, no impact, they don't seem like they're real or like they could possibly matter? (That's basically what Elon's doing to our federal government right now.) To wield such disproportionately great power in the world is something like that, I think, though the powerful don't wake up overnight like that, it's a gradual process by which the weight and consequence of the world around them disappears.
posted by mstokes650 at 4:32 PM on April 8 [4 favorites]
On the topic of IVF, commodities, and empathy, I feel like it's worth noting that it's Vivian herself that feels that:
My assigned sex at birth was a commodity that was bought and paid for. So when I was feminine as a child and then turned out to be transgender, I was going against the product that was sold. That expectation of masculinity that I had to rebel against all my life was a monetary transaction. A monetary transaction. A MONETARY TRANSACTION.Her feelings about her father considering her a defective product probably started because of Musk's ruinous lack of empathy in how he treats his own children:
Wilson said that, when she was a child, Musk would harass her for exhibiting feminine traits and pressure her to appear more masculine, including by pushing her to deepen her voice as early as elementary school.posted by foxfirefey at 4:33 PM on April 8 [4 favorites]
“I was in fourth grade. We went on this road trip that I didn’t know was actually just an advertisement for one of the cars — I don’t remember which one — and he was constantly yelling at me viciously because my voice was too high,” she said. “It was cruel.”
...
“He doesn’t know what I was like as a child because he quite simply wasn’t there,” she wrote. “And in the little time that he was I was relentlessly harassed for my femininity and queerness.”
I'm not a huge fan of the presentational style, but this seem relevant:
Elite Panic
The TLDR is, people in power assume that when the shit hits the fan, the population will release their ID monsters and destroy all the things. And more importantly, steal from the powerful. So they deploy power to keep the people in line.
What actually happens in times of catastrophy is people band together and help each other out to get through hard times.
If you need some hope for the state of human empathy, it's worth a listen.
And...the propaganda machines have been working overtime to vilify empathy, and that's a problem.
But I was super energized from attending protests over the weekend, where empathy was on full display.
posted by chromecow at 5:21 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Elite Panic
The TLDR is, people in power assume that when the shit hits the fan, the population will release their ID monsters and destroy all the things. And more importantly, steal from the powerful. So they deploy power to keep the people in line.
What actually happens in times of catastrophy is people band together and help each other out to get through hard times.
If you need some hope for the state of human empathy, it's worth a listen.
And...the propaganda machines have been working overtime to vilify empathy, and that's a problem.
But I was super energized from attending protests over the weekend, where empathy was on full display.
posted by chromecow at 5:21 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
« Older If you're a doctor or scientist, consider Canada? | We asked him whether he’d like to be hotted up in... Newer »
DOLAN: We're expected to lie about the existence of these hierarchies all of the time. And if our goal is to rehabilitate hierarchies of nature, then the best place to start is the most fundamental natural hierarchies, which are found in the family. And that brings us back to where we started, with selective breeding.
HAGEN: Matthew McManus is a lecturer at the University of Michigan and an expert on the modern hard-right writers Dolan takes inspiration from.
MATTHEW MCMANUS: The idea is essentially that our society has become excessively effeminate, weak, compassionate. And what they want to do is breed or elevate an aristocratic class that's going to be masculine, violent, not necessarily motivated by, let's call it, empathy.
HAGEN: For these thinkers, restoring this masculine culture means feminism and multicultural democracy need to be rooted out.
MCMANUS: Women are to be subordinated to men, largely going to be responsible for managing the household, although with no real particular authority. And of course, they're going to have an awful lot of children.
posted by Brian B. at 8:40 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]