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[–]MarsOG13 3159 points3160 points 2 (383 children)

AT&T stopped or at least severely slowed fiber rollouts. Verizon sold FioS off to frontier, and google stopped fiber too. AT&T has been sending fiber letters to me for 5 years, never happens. Even worse, they say I have AT&T service and I do not when checking availability.

They all just want to push wireless again. So they went back to unlimited plans....for now. That'll get yanked later I 100% guarantee it.

Cox and charter both tried doing tiered cable at home in Texas and the backlash was harsh for them, shortlived and had to go back to normal cable services IIRC. (Sorry Im in Cali and could be off on that info)

Believe me its not over. We have to push fiber or well get fucked over again.

We need to break up AT&T and Verizon.

Spectrum is pushing their mobile service hard now too.

[–]MimonFishbaum 738 points739 points  (216 children)

Live in KC with Google Fiber. Seems they severely underestimated the work it takes to connect areas with buried utilities. My friends in the city had fiber super quick and it took nearly 3yrs for me to get it in the burbs. Once they needed to bury line, it was basically just one non stop check writing bonanza to the utility companies until they fulfilled their agreement.

[–]brennanc123 461 points462 points  (156 children)

I install fiber and can confirm there are a ton of companies who don’t understand how tedious it is to install fiber.

[–]Ninnux 189 points190 points  (147 children)

Can you explain why? I'm genuinely curious as they are trying to do it out here in rural PA and it's taking forever.

[–]slamdeathmetals 505 points506 points  (130 children)

Fiber is glass. Little thin, slightly thicker than hair strands of glass. You've likely see a cat5 or Ethernet cable before. That's copper. Tipping/splicing those is easy. Bend, twist, cut, do whatever as long as it's touching and it sends. And it's cheap.

Since fiber is glass, the tools to tip, splice, house and maintain it are all WAY more expensive. Google a "fusion splicer". Tipping it takes a decent amount of time and the tip of the fiber has to be clean, so it can transmit light. It's an extremely tedious and time consuming process. Same with splicing.

Additionally, in my experience, each fiber circuit had, I believe, 24 strands of fiber. Every circuit requires two strands. So for a neighborhood to each house, that's 2 strands. I assume anyways. My experience with fiber was in the Toll road industry.

I can't imagine how many strands of fiber that needs to be spliced/tipped for a neighborhood with hundreds of houses. Hopefully someone else can chime in with experience.

I imagine all of this shit mixed in with local government red tape that are funded by the Charters, Cox, ATT, makes it a nighmare.

[–]thor561 141 points142 points  (58 children)

Also, to a degree, copper lines can stretch and still carry a signal. If fiber gets stretched and any of those strands fracture at all, those strands are basically fucked for carrying light over them. Fiber is absolutely better for speed but a nightmare when it gets damaged.

At a previous employer we had a fiber line going to one of our buildings get cut on purpose because the utility contractor thought it wasn't in use (that made for some extremely pissed off upper management) and it took over a week for them to get the proper type of fiber in and spliced.

[–]notepad20 45 points46 points  (44 children)

So in Australian it ended up being "fiber to the node", the old copper network was left in, and each block basically got a node that was served by fiber, and the houses were all served by existing copper network.

Obviously one side of politics says this was an aweful solution compared to all new fiber to the premises every where.

What is the truth

[–]SlitScan 49 points50 points  (29 children)

the truth is, do you have gigabyte symmetrical unlimited for 50 a month?

if no then youre being lied to.

[–]xrarey 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I actually do have this, but for 80 a month. I'm thankful.

[–]cryonine 4 points5 points  (5 children)

1G symmetric unlimited fiber spliced right in my network closet in the US for $43/mo. Local provider too! Literally best internet offer I’ve ever had (it’s not a promo) in all my years living in various cities.

[–]SlitScan 2 points3 points  (1 child)

yup you win, you have a real ISP.

everyone else is dealing with failing cable or phone companies after their primary revenue source dried up, monopolies run by MBAs for shareholder value with competition eliminated through mergers or by bribes.

[–]callanrocks 13 points14 points  (0 children)

There's a new fiber rollout going on so you already know the answer to this, plus FTTN is massively slower than full rollout was going to be and they manage to blowout the costs significantly by half assing it.

[–]RememberCitadel 292 points293 points  (8 children)

Most residential uses bidirectional, as in they send one wavelength down one direction and another on the other direction down the same fiber. The uplinks from the local pole still work the traditional way however.

[–]slamdeathmetals 75 points76 points  (1 child)

Ah, cool! Today I learned.

[–]ccagan 44 points45 points  (0 children)

They do so with passive optical splitters, google GPON.

[–]PM_ME__BIRD_PICS 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Depends on the roll out, in NZ there are a pair of fibres that are bidirectional to the GPON in the event one fails or another NTU/ONT needs to be installed (subdivision ect) at the berm of most residential homes.

[–]SpliceBadger 31 points32 points  (5 children)

They have been using both bidirectional signal and optical splitters for at least a decade. The splitters I’ve seen and used were for the most part 1:32, so 32 customers fed by a single fiber to a distribution point in a neighborhood and then single fibers to each house. More recently the splitters placed have been 1:64. I’ve installed distribution points big enough to feed 864 customers. The residential overlays that I’ve done have used preconnectorized cables that range up to 144 fibers and drop off connectors at a terminal feeding usually between 4 and 12 customers. The difficulty at this point, at least as far as companies that already have easement and some sort of infrastructure therein, is that placing this sort of cable (and really any sort of cable where you don’t have vacant ducting) in the ground is much more expensive and time consuming than simply hanging it on poles.

Let me also say that while I know both the possibilities and the difficulties I don’t in any way believe 10Mbps upstream is in any way acceptable as a standard.

[–]The42ndHitchHiker 11 points12 points  (5 children)

Residential internet typically uses a single strand in duplex mode, which helps mitigate some of the cost. The ISP I worked for ran a trunk line to a fiber splitter in the field, which would support ~32 residential accounts at up to 1Gbps symmetrical speeds.

[–]runthepoint1 8 points9 points  (5 children)

Which is why this needs to be a national program IMO

[–]leapbitch 9 points10 points  (8 children)

What's the difference between the $1000 fusion splicer from Orientek and the $15,000 fusion splicer from Fuijikara?

I can imagine the magnitudes of cash needed to start turning over a municipal fiber company...which makes it all the more infuriating there are so many barriers.

[–]ShadowFlareXIII 7 points8 points  (0 children)

There can be a large variety of differences. The Fujikura 70R I use is a $10,000 machine. It is a “Core Alignment” splicer—the light going through a fiber technically only uses the very inner core of the fiber that is just 9 microns in diameter for Single Mode fiber. The R series also means it is capable of Ribbon Splicing, which is splicing 12 fibers at once (fiber optics uses a base 12 system of specific colors in a specific order, varying by country of origin). I imagine most splicers include the Cleaver in the cost, and the precision and durability of said Cleaver will vary widely. The CT30 cleaver that comes with the 70R has a synthetic diamond tipped blade in it that can be rotated up to 18 times, supposedly used for 1000 cleaves per rotation (though you can easily get double that number). I imagine the cheaper ones come with a cheaper cleaver too.

There are also multiple types, or “modes” of fiber, so a cheaper splicer may not have the option to splice a specific type of mode, where the 70R has a variety of options for both Single and MultiMode fibers.

I’ve seen some splicers that have the cleavers built in, as well as having a built in dispenser for cleaning wipes and cleaning solution too.

[–]tora-ataraxia 43 points44 points  (7 children)

As someone who worked with fiber as testing equipment, I would hazard the guess of:

It’s easy as fuck to break so you have to be very careful with it. We’re not really talking like eggshell careful but careful enough where too much of a bend will ruin a good length of fiber.

[–]wimpymist 9 points10 points  (6 children)

We ran fiber across the ocean we should be able to set it up in residential lol

[–]6C6F6C636174 6 points7 points  (1 child)

We just need to use armored cable in the burbs, too. Problem solved. 👍

[–]WookieeSteakIsChewie 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Where are you in rural PA, if you don't mind me asking?

I'm in rural PA too, and for my entire adult life I had been stuck with 2mbs Verizon DSL until a company came in doing satellite broadband from local towers. Zero data cap, 75mbs. It's been life changing.

[–]Jarys 32 points33 points  (4 children)

from my understanding the problem wasnt the difficulty of the installation, it was the fact that companies like AT&T and Comcast were fighting them at every step. This included mostly lobbying and refusing access to common infrastructure.

[–]MimonFishbaum 9 points10 points  (1 child)

Probably a some of both and some other shit too.

[–]wimpymist 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It was the lobbying and money thrown against it. Plenty of places have fiber, we ran fiber across the damn ocean. People are just repeating PR excuses

[–]daaaayyyy_dranker 5 points6 points  (3 children)

AT&T didn’t even bother to bury here. They ran it from the existing poles

[–]octopornopus 18 points19 points  (2 children)

Austin here:

I live in one of the first areas to get Google Fiber, and jumped on it immediately. I've had to restart the router once in five years.

Before that we had Time Warner. The internet went out every other week, and it took a week before they would come out to fix it. Now they (Spectrum) show up and try to convince me I would save so much money by switching back. Get off my property...

[–]MimonFishbaum 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Yeah, the only gripe I have is their tv service is shit. The price constantly rose and they never added features all other carriers offered standard. $105/mo for basic cable and can't even stream my entire channel guide on a mobile device even on my own network.

I had a headache setting up the new mesh routers, but I haven't had a problem since. Plus, they refund outages automatically which is crazy these days.

And I mean, cmon.

[–]dinoaide 84 points85 points  (20 children)

That’s the American “right of way”:

Yeah, we should support fiber and broadband for our local community, regardless of age, education, income, employment status.

But I heard you want to dig up my lawn to bury a 50 ft fiber? No way unless you sign an easement agreement with me and my lawyer. I don’t even want cables to pass overhead as it would reduce my property value!

[–]Erikthered00 30 points31 points  (6 children)

Hmmm...in other countries I’ve lived in, you don’t own the footpath to the road (the berm) but as the resident you have to maintain it. So if the council or utilities companies need to put services through there, they don’t need your permission

[–]RoninSC 32 points33 points  (1 child)

Pretty much same thing here, just seems many are not aware of easement rights. Work in the cable industry and occasionally people will come out yelling I can't be in their backyard working at the utility pole.

[–]SVXfiles 19 points20 points  (0 children)

I dealt with that as a tech. My favorite was when some asshat thought the cable, phone and electrical utility boxes belonged to them and put their fence around it. One call to the city planning office could result in having a very pissed off person having to tear out and move part of their fence since it crossed over their property line

[–]klingma 6 points7 points  (0 children)

That's how it works in America as well. From the curb to the end of the sidewalk is all considered public property for the purposes of the city/utilities. Fun fact that's also why you see protestors on people's lawns and it not being considered trespassing.

[–]mark3t 37 points38 points  (11 children)

They are installing fiber in my little town of Troy, MO. Not sure how it works, but they are tearing up yards left and right installing it. They buried some kind of access point in my yard. They didn't do a bad job of fixing the yards when they were done, but they didn't do a great job either. But no one asked permission.

[–]pf3 54 points55 points  (3 children)

But no one asked permission.

They might already have an easement.

[–]Gorstag 46 points47 points  (2 children)

Or his "yard" isn't really his. I've got about 10' of yard running the length of my property that isn't technically mine. It's just the space between the paved road and my property line.

[–]The_White_Light 15 points16 points  (1 child)

In my city, all the space between the road and the sidewalk is technically municipal property, but we're also responsible for its upkeep. All the power and utility lines are buried along there, so if something happens or upgrades are needed the city doesn't have to worry about getting permission from hundreds of homes (just to inevitably get held up by one or two people for no good reason).

[–]leostotch 21 points22 points  (0 children)

They probably already had the easement, so permission wasn't required.

[–]Possibly_a_Firetruck 4 points5 points  (1 child)

That's not your yard, it's the right of way and they don't need your permission. If there's a marker post like this one, there should be a phone number on it you can call.

[–]fryether 43 points44 points  (1 child)

At&t was already broken up. Hobbits Enter “But what about second breakup?”

[–]syringistic 7 points8 points  (0 children)

:sighs in Bell Atlantic:

[–]bassstud09 29 points30 points  (1 child)

Spectrum is pushing their mobile service hard now too

"unlimited" - but we slow your internet after a certain amount. Its not a limit, but a restriction applied once you reach a certain point.

Sure, it limits your speed - but now we have "unlimited, plus!" - now with less limits!

[–]HeWhoredditsBehind 10 points11 points  (0 children)

It's also just Verizon. Spectrum is just another MVNO.

[–]LotusSloth 113 points114 points  (20 children)

They hate fiber because it requires physical source-to-site connection. Expensive for them to create and to sustain. They tried to pass off a hybrid fiber/DSL system in a neighborhood I used to live in, as a way to have their cake and eat it too.

“U-Verse” Service was terrible, inconsistent, with frequent interruptions. They never fixed it... they sold that “region” to frontier, who also didn’t fix it.

My only recourse was to dump them and go back to Comcast coax service. I’m glad I don’t have to deal with those companies any more.

[–]MarsOG13 12 points13 points  (9 children)

Wait frontier bought uverse too?

Where did they get the capital for that and fios? Man they are trying hard to crash fiber using frontier.

[–]LotusSloth 33 points34 points  (8 children)

I may have misspoke. They didn’t actually sell to frontier in my old neighborhood in Connecticut. Instead, they ABANDONED the market and let all their customers know that frontier would be providing service if we wanted it, OR that we would have to switch to another provider.

I elected to stay with U-Verse, and it was absurd. There was a roughly 2-week period where internet and television service was disrupted. I don’t mean “on and off sporadically,” I mean they left that market and left me without internet for 2 weeks. CT’s attorney general and/or telecom regulators had to step in.

[–]Shift642 38 points39 points  (3 children)

The fact that a provider simply up and leaving a market can disrupt the lives and livelihoods of tens of thousands of people for weeks on end is the best argument I know of for making internet a utility. It's like shutting off running water to an entire zip code.

[–]Nothingaddsup 10 points11 points  (1 child)

This is something I find weird about the US.

Where I live all the physical aspect of internet connections is done by a single company, funded largely by Government contracts, and it can't sell services directly to consumers. Instead it's a wholesaler that any company can buy from to become an ISP.

As a result most the country has between 10 and 20 ISPs that service their area.

[–]Beyondoutlier 7 points8 points  (2 children)

Smart move - hate frontier here in NEPA, trying to get internet from cable company (better than frontier DSL) but frontier not responding to cable company - hate frontier, hate frontier, hate frontier

[–]TheDakoe 2 points3 points  (1 child)

but frontier not responding to cable company

cable company in my area took an extra 2+ years to get internet to us because frontier kept playing games with them. The counter commissioners even gave up on trying to make frontier do the right thing with their customers. We were up to 4 weeks waiting for frontier to fix lines, while the cable company was months waiting for permission to use each pole.

Of course now the cable company is turning to crap because they are trying to expand without maintaining.

[–]Beyondoutlier 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ugh - it kills me that this is even a question - you are going to charge me to rerun the lines in the pole anyway and my 116 bucks a month can’t be keeping you afloat. And I’ve tried contacting my state senators etc with no joy but they are out there saying we have to get internet to rural areas- you asshats could start with me ! maybe star link will come through before then and I can tell them all to F off

[–]PURRING_SILENCER 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I remember that time. I had Cox but I recall the switchover being a shit show.

frontier just hung fiber in my neighborhood a few weeks ago and sent someone around to inform us of it. Dude was wearing both a frontier and AT&T badge. Yeah no thanks. I'll stay with Cox (which ironically has sucked bad this past few days) until GoNetSpeed gets into town.

[–]Shift642 38 points39 points  (5 children)

Ahahaha yes, the absolute joke that U-Verse was.

They were able to call it "fiber" internet because of a loophole where the only qualification for calling it a "fiber connection" was that at some point somewhere the copper line connected to fiber eventually. "Eventually" being the fiber backbones that go coast-to-coast. Literally every internet connection in the country uses those. That's not a fiber internet connection, but they marketed it as such.

AT&T is the scum of the Earth.

[–]secretactorian 6 points7 points  (1 child)

There's a government survey about whether or not you have the service companies say you do. It's a basic, basic form, but it looks like the FCC may actually be trying to maybe do something? I'll edit in the link.

I'm not saying it'll get anything done, but you can at least call them out on their lies.

Edit: https://www.fcc.gov/BroadbandData/consumers

[–]GamingWithBilly 2 points3 points  (0 children)

U-verse sounds like Uplay but was made by EA.

[–]AidsAcrossAmerica 21 points22 points  (10 children)

Verizon sold FioS off to frontier

Anyone elses week fucked by frontier Static IP cutovers?

[–]energetic-dad 4 points5 points  (0 children)

google stopped fiber too

I dunno about all that. I'm getting google fiber installed in my house tomorrow morning, so they are still doing it in some areas.

[–]omicron01 12 points13 points  (18 children)

Is starlink the solution?

[–]Box-o-bees 24 points25 points  (13 children)

If it works as well as they say it does and can scale it. I think it's going to be a great sledgehammer to break up current ISP's bullshit. It will give people another option when most places are a monopoly for people.

It's also going to give rural areas much needed coverage. Areas that the government paid money to ISPs to go out to and they took the money and didn't do shit.

[–]LostWoodsInTheField 7 points8 points  (0 children)

It's also going to give rural areas much needed coverage.

I've looked at moving from my area to some place warmer and all the places I would like to live are without internet or quick internet. Starlink will really make me start thinking about my options in a few years.

[–]Kimpak 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Not in urban areas. Starlink will work great for rural and low population density areas. That's not going to hurt big ISPs much since they already don't service those areas for the most part.

In urban areas where the population density is high would saturate the bandwidth available to the Sats too much.

[–]Thirs 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Don't forget about CenturyStink. They also slowed fiber rollouts while gathering taxpayer money for years promising to upgrade. In many areas they still have old copper DSL with far less than 10 Mbps upload. Try sub 1 Mbps upload. All this while charging almost the same price as cable internet which has decent speeds. Why? ISP's in the USA are monopolies. Look at areas and you will see maybe two viable options and the prices aren't great. At this point internet service should be a utility maintained by a local company.

As u/Titsoritdidnthappen2 (LOL) mentioned the same thievery by ISP's... Crooks all of them. It's not like taxpayers don't know what happened, the shame is nothing will happen to the ISP's for what they've done.

[–]Frymewitheggs 34 points35 points  (25 children)

So I shouldn't tell you about the major UK Fibre rollout taking place that has been running for 5 years so far and has around 20% of country Fibres up with an end goal of 80% coverage.

[–]Wife-B-Gone 57 points58 points  (16 children)

It's a lot easier when your whole country is the size of one of our states, but the real problem in the US is definitely caused by these buggy whip manufacturers complaining that no one needs cars. They need to get their shit together, this is the future man!

How many people have phone lines to their house for example. They're just hanging on to the old structure.

[–]thor561 7 points8 points  (7 children)

The thing is, they don't WANT to hang on to the old infrastructure either. They're jacking up prices on POTS lines and T1's because they don't want to maintain the infrastructure needed. I have several customers having to migrate phone service off T1 lines because their service provider has warned that the price increase is going to be prohibitive.

[–]SVXfiles 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Phone lines were once required to be placed to every house in the country, regardless of location it had to be done somehow. E911 wasn't a thing when the closest you had to a cell phone was a corded phone with a long cable you could move around your house with. Now with cell phones it's no longer required but still not a bad idea for new construction.

If you ever need to call 911 and you can get a dial tone from a wall jack it will go through, you just won't be able to call anyone else

[–]archaeolinuxgeek 22 points23 points  (2 children)

I dunno. My fellow United Statsians will tell you that it's way easier to deploy to a few concentrated population centers than it is to string fibre and copper across a continent.

But my sibs in Seattle are stuck at 25/5 and in the boonies I'm at 300/30 at half the price. That disparity has nothing, nothing to do with the fact that there are multiple ISPs in my region of Montana.

[–]pf3 6 points7 points  (0 children)

When I lived in Tacoma I paid $65 a month for symmetrical gigabit. Coincidentally we also had multiple ISPs.

[–]its 6 points7 points  (0 children)

You know who is negotiating the exclusive deals? Your local government. Vote them out.

[–]MarsOG13 31 points32 points  (1 child)

No. Please do. Shout it. Shame the US for the gross incompetence.

[–]wtfeweguys 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Definitely shouldn’t tell us about that

[–]lordxi 4 points5 points  (2 children)

frontier bought everyones legacy DSL, too. What a joke doing tech support for them was.

[–]Titsoritdidnthappen2 2533 points2534 points  (84 children)

AT&T and every other provider can get fucked. Government gave them billions and they poo pooed it into nothing.

Edit: as u/shift642 points out, it was over half a trillion of graft back in 2017.

Edit2: my parents, who live in middle of nowhere wisconsin. Population 800. Have had fiber from their local telephone company for the last 10 years, as has every random hunting cabin and fish shack in the county. Municipal owned plans seem to work out well. Well, except for when AT&T and other fucks preempt it with state level anti compete legislation.

Edit 3: tripling down on the fuckem.

[–]montgomerydoc 499 points500 points  (44 children)

For real they get tons of tax payer funding and just screw us. Also got a notification email recently saying they changed policies so class action lawsuits can’t effect them individuals have to deal with them one to one. I wonder why 🤔

[–]Koda239 256 points257 points  (33 children)

Shouldn't be a problem then. Gather a "class" of individuals, copy/paste all the paperwork, file and schedule all the cases at different dates/times that are coordinated with "the class" but not with the ISP, and drown their asses in paperwork. Keep them in court for months and months, and years.

They don't want class action lawsuits? Take them thousands and thousands of the same cookie-cutter cases & drown them and the legal system until someone else caves.

[–]AmateurOntologist 116 points117 points  (23 children)

I'm pretty sure they have better lawyers on retainer than you or me.

[–]bailey25u 67 points68 points  (1 child)

The first adult job I had, ATT just stopped paying our contracts. and they just lawyered up against our company until we went bankrupt. How I started losing faith in everything

[–]Santiago_S 124 points125 points  (15 children)

Thats not the point. They can afford a 100 amazing lawyers but what if you have to have 10,000 laywers spread out over the whole country fighting in every district and city court. That will add up real quick

[–]syringistic 81 points82 points  (4 children)

Its 'they can' versus 'what if you.'

[–]Neurotypicalism 55 points56 points  (3 children)

Every revolution started as a “What if we” in spite of a “They can”.

[–]klingma 16 points17 points  (0 children)

Sure, it'll add up real quick until AT&T's lawyers get it thrown out for failure to state a claim or on standing. Unless AT&T directly harmed the individual plaintiffs and there's more evidence than just "they took the government's money and didn't do anything with it" every one of those cases is getting thrown. The only one here with standing is the Federal and/or State Governments.

[–]Kaywin 48 points49 points  (5 children)

Like a DDOS attack, but on paper?

[–]WillLie4karma 6 points7 points  (0 children)

The cost of the 10,000 lawers would add up real quick. AT&T would just have to delay the case a few months and every average person in the US would be broke.

[–]mehoff88 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Not sure why people blame the lawyers, it's the politicians and the judges that should be to blame.

[–]benigntugboat 38 points39 points  (2 children)

The reason that would work is because it doesnt matter how good their lawyers are. A single team or firm cant handle thousands of complaints. Its literally how scientology overwhelmed the US government

[–]klingma 10 points11 points  (1 child)

That's actually not how they won. Scientology won by suing as many individuals in the IRS possible and going after for dereliction of duty. So, basically they beat the individuals into submission and naturally that lead to the IRS being beaten. Long story short to match what Scientology did you'd have to sue every C-Suite exec personally.

[–]pitchko 17 points18 points  (0 children)

How hilarious would it be if they did not though?

Like what if all corporations had to use free public defendants...,

[–]usNEUX 16 points17 points  (5 children)

That's not how the legal system works. They could just move to have the cases consolidated and the court would almost certainly grant it.

[–]benigntugboat 14 points15 points  (2 children)

You're the one misunderstanding how it works.

"Courts have the power to consolidate cases that raise common questions of fact or issues of law for many purposes, including to hold a single trial. But consolidating cases, no matter the purpose, does not destroy the independent cases for appeal, according to a decision by the U.S. Supreme Court."

Consolidating cases mainly applies to c4iminal cases where the interpretation of law matters. When damages are concerned and individual arguments need to be made the cases will still proceed on a case by case basis.

[–]majnuker 12 points13 points  (0 children)

That doesn't reclassify it as a class-action, which they are claiming can't affect them?

[–]3rdDegreeBurn 24 points25 points  (4 children)

Arbitration isn’t binding if the actions the company takes are illegal.

[–]Shift642 101 points102 points  (3 children)

Not just billions, hundreds of billions. Well over half a trillion by 2017. At this rate, I'd wager we're nearing a full trillion dollars in public money siphoned off into corporate pockets for infrastructure that never materialized. And we're still fucking paying them.

Reclassify broadband as a utility. Break up regional internet monopolies. End price and market collusion. This has to fucking stop. But it won't, because money talks, and they stole all the fucking money.

[–]MagillaGorillasHat 2 points3 points  (0 children)

At this rate, I'd wager we're nearing a full trillion dollars in public money siphoned off into corporate pockets for infrastructure that never materialized. And we're still fucking paying them.

The book putting those number out was and is clickbait BS. The dude who wrote it "republishes" it every few years and ups the number.

98% of the $400 billion quoted by the book comes from "excess profits" (known as opportunity costs when negative) and "excessive depreciation" which allegedly wouldn't have happened if ISPs been classified and regulated as public utilities starting in 1996. None of that was taken from, and never would have belonged to, taxpayers.

The book also supposes that we'd get to the exact same place infrastructure-wise. Both claims are silly, and definitely couldn't both be true at the same time. Investments and profits for public utilities are limited by regulations, so that part could be true on its own. But because profits are limited, investments in public utilities aren't attractive enough to get the kind of capital influx we saw with ISPs and infrastructure would likely be much worse than what it is now.

Here's a discussion from some years ago with a link to the original book.

There are plenty of good reasons to be upset with ISPs, but this book ain't it.

[–]zorbathegrate 19 points20 points  (0 children)

They didn’t poopoo it into nothing, they lined their pockets and cornered markets. They bought up the competition screwed over the consumer.

The worst isn’t good enough for the providers.

[–]Human-Sugar1855 346 points347 points  (46 children)

Man I hope AT&T disintegrates.

[–]ButregenyoYavrusu 136 points137 points  (37 children)

Can’t wait for this to happen, to all isps actually. I really hope starlink can manage to pull a Kodak on AT&T

[–]bagofwisdom 63 points64 points  (31 children)

from what I've been seeing from early adopters, Starlink is going to be a game changer. I hope it also forces the internet to get switched over to IPv6. Starlink is using CGNAT for IPv4 which isn't a big deal once enough internet infrastructure is on IPv6.

[–]Kickagnome 33 points34 points  (22 children)

Starlink will severely hurt all internet provides. I know I'm going to switch, and so are many other people I know. The downsides for Starlink still far outweigh any positives of staying with companies like AT&T.

[–]dooooozenberg 7 points8 points  (0 children)

They literally have all the cell phone and internet data pretty much ever clicked. they are among the most powerful entities in the world.

[–]soulruler 41 points42 points  (3 children)

As someone with Gigabit fiber with 1gbps upload I can confidently say that AT&T can go fuck themselves

[–]quiteCryptic 11 points12 points  (0 children)

As someone who has gigabit fiber from AT&T I can say that AT&T can go fuck themselves, but pls don't take my fiber away

[–]David_Foxx 259 points260 points  (6 children)

AT&T should rebrand itself. Always Terrible & Thoughtless hasn't worked right since the rotary phone days. I built my home in an area because of its access to fiber. What they are really saying is we want to capture more profit and not reinvest it in our infrastructure. As they have done for years, they are not listening to their customers.

[–]archaeolinuxgeek 24 points25 points  (1 child)

We thought we had broken them up. But it was more of a T-1000 scenario. Eventually they oozed back together and now any discussion on regulating their monopoly inevitability ends in, "teh socialismz!"

[–]InGordWeTrust 117 points118 points  (11 children)

I wish they would pay communities to install their own fiber, because we can't trust the phone companies to have our backs it seems.

[–]slurms_mckensi3 39 points40 points  (0 children)

This is really what needs to happen. Even if the companies have some kind of binding deal with the government, they will not be held accountable when they inevitably fail to roll out fiber anywhere.

[–]IniNew 32 points33 points  (3 children)

Several states are actually being given money by telecom lobbyist to do the exact opposite: to make it illegal for communities to install their own fiber.

[–]Jaybeux 9 points10 points  (1 child)

You have to organize and fight this kind of legislation. I know that's alot of work but you don't get the change you want unless you fight for it and believe me it's possible. If Mississippi did it other states can as well.

[–]Jarys 6 points7 points  (1 child)

too bad companies like comcast and at&t have lobbied so hard against that that it is essentially illegal to have municipal broadband in many towns in the USA. think of a way to impede progress on this front and those 2 have basically done it, they are the very worst.

[–]Mazon_Del 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Here in Colorado the state is helping subsidize local areas to create their own municipal fiber. My sister and her husband were paying ~$75/month for gig up/down speeds.

My neighborhood is getting it installed just as soon as spring properly hits (we were next on the list, but winter rolled in and they stopped for the snow).

[–]weliketomoveit 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Just got the Fort Collins municipal internet and it's amazing. No data cap, dl/ul 1gbps. $60/mo. Everyone should get an initiative going in their communities. If nothing else these companies would blow hundreds of millions of dollars lobbying against them.

[–]Sergei-I_mean-Bob 474 points475 points  (26 children)

AT&T you are such a terrible company that someone literally suicide bombed you last Christmas. Give it a rest.

[–]PreviousFriendship85 59 points60 points  (0 children)

Imagine being such a bad company you are a target for extremists lmao

[–]Crackhaze 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I lost internet for like 3 days when that happened. The real kicker is that ATT is my only option where I live (15 minutes outside Nashville).

[–]LigerXT5 220 points221 points  (18 children)

10Mbs is BS, even when the "up to" can't even be met consistently in most cases.

Granted, I'm on Suddenlink, when I was on the plan with 7.5Mbs up, and speed tests show close to 7.5Mbs, I'd stream to twitch at 4Mbs, and it'd chug for no known reason. Yet, get this, same speed package a year prior to having issues, I had no issues.

Now with many working from home. 10Mbs is not enough for a video chat with everything else going on. Try having a family of three, even two, kids trying to school remotely or game, while the parents are doing other stuff, remote work or not.

[–]Soupdeloup 42 points43 points  (10 children)

Man it's so messed up that so much of the United States North America has such bad internet. I remember back in the early 00s my dad upgraded to "fast" internet at the time -- 5 Mbps. How some areas are still around that speed boggles my mind.

I'm paying $85 for 1 Gbps in Canada and never even think twice about my internet connection. I can't imagine being bogged down to dsl speeds while everyone is working from home, absolutely ridiculous.

[–]Hasnooti 8 points9 points  (7 children)

Where the fuck in Canada are you getting 1gps for $85 a month, I'm in Ontario and that shit is easily in the $120 range

[–]BigfootSF68 104 points105 points  (4 children)

"No one will ever need more than 256 kilobytes of ram."

"This 300 MB hard drive holds all of our games. We will never need a bigger one."

"This connection to the internet is sufficient for all things. No need to improve it here."

What AT&T is really saying: "those changes you want take money from my blackjack, hookers, and cocaine fund."

Edit: oxford comma.

[–]ReadingFromTheShittr 11 points12 points  (1 child)

"We don't need the telegraph, or railways. We've got the Pony Express!"

[–]ItalianDragon 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Ain't this the truth. I still remember having a 200GB HDD in my PC thinking it'd be plenty enough back in like '04. Fast forward to today and in my PC I'm totaling 5 and a half TB of storage (500GB SSD + 1TO SSD + 4TBSSD) and I have a couple of external HDD's as well.

I feel the same with internet. 20 megabits felt like way enough. Fast forward to now and 45 megabits aren't enough and I'm waiting for fiber to finally reach my home (should be gigsbit symmetrical but my ISP apparently offers 2 gigabits max so maybe that's what I'll get). Also no I don't live in the U.S. , I'm in Southern France.

[–]captainhamption 3 points4 points  (0 children)

"No one will every need to stream 4K video"

[–]LotusSloth 63 points64 points  (4 children)

AT&T is an enemy of American progress and innovation. They should be treated as such. Mandate that they bring true high speed internet to rural consumers at no additional cost to the consumer. They’ve been limiting consumer choice for years and hiding behind subsidiaries, partnerships, and regulations to excuse them from improving service in their captive markets!

[–]WorkingContext 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The double edge sword with regulations is that it takes relative experts to understand an implement regulations. Our old farts in congress will just say "300 mbps, that seems high enough"

[–]GDmofo 12 points13 points  (0 children)

So if we don't need nationwide fiber, then they can give back those billions in tax breaks they got to roll out nationwide fiber? Right?

Right?

[–]QuestionableAI 93 points94 points  (6 children)

AT&T ... wanting to be your only phone company in town again. Heavy flashback to the 80s. They should all suffer the fate of the dispersed old Ma Bell.

[–]keikai86 45 points46 points  (2 children)

AT&T was Ma Bell. And what eventually happened was the biggest Baby Bell started buying up all the other Baby Bells until they were all under one roof again. So in the end, the fate of Ma Bell is that she just got bigger.

[–]19Kilo 7 points8 points  (0 children)

the fate of Ma Bell is that she just got bigger.

And smarter, so she keeps a couple friends around as "competition" to fight the charges of monopoly.

[–]hylas1 2 points3 points  (0 children)

only the name remains from the old at&t days. they bought the name and renamed the snet and bought up assets such as a wireless provider to create a new company.

[–]solzhen 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Ma Bell got the ill communication.

[–]111tacocat111 40 points41 points  (17 children)

AT&T executives have never played video games.

[–]Shift642 23 points24 points  (9 children)

Downloading a 30GB game at 10Mbps would take more than 7 hours.

[–]ent4rent 36 points37 points  (5 children)

America does not agree.

[–]DoctorDLucas 11 points12 points  (1 child)

America says it doesn't agree and then votes people into power that act against their best interests, one of which is the complete handover of America to corporations.

Americans are fucked because they have no idea what they want

[–]zetswei 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Not sure why you’re downvoted you’re entirely right. Americans vote for party rather than positions and consistently vote against their demographic best interests

[–]cpt_caveman 5 points6 points  (0 children)

AT&T warns of high monthly bills

besides the US has some of the highest bills on the planet.. even in areas that was just as rural as our rural areas.... ATT also charges about double the rate in every area they dont have competition.. which is nearly everywhere... except a smattering of cities with shit like google fiber.

Amazing how the "high monthly bills" suddenly get cut in half when someone else is allowed to service the town as well... its almost like those high monthly bills are just high monthly profits.

[–]a_theist_guy 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Fuck AT&T to death with a hot iron. I canceled their service years ago because it was absolute shit and the customer service to match. Cancel that shit and never look back!

[–]TheWino 30 points31 points  (3 children)

These fucks were given billions to get fiber everywhere and they did nothing but keep the cash. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-book-of-broken-promis_b_5839394

[–]Queef_Latifahh 4 points5 points  (4 children)

Why is lobbying legal again?

[–]pjx1 5 points6 points  (0 children)

This is why starlink is so important. All the terrestrial providers are liars just to protect themselves from having to invest while taking our tax money. This is bullshit in its highest form.

[–]Tumblrrito 13 points14 points  (5 children)

As someone with 1 gbps up and down, I can safely say that no, 10 mbps isn’t even close to enough.

[–]kidamb 3 points4 points  (2 children)

This thread has me all sorts of confused because I have 1 gbps up and down as well.... with at&t.

[–]EshBaaia 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Tbh it's probably enough for most people.

[–]LoftyGoat 4 points5 points  (1 child)

Of course they do.

We've already paid telcos for that, something like a half-trillion dollars over the past decade or two in the form of an "internet tax".

They want to keep that money, not to spend it fulfilling the mandate under which they collected it.

Why? Because they're AT&T, et al.

Edit: And when municipalities want to do it, telcos sue because it's "anti-competitive". Read my lips: We don't care. AT&T exists to serve our society, not the other way around.

[–]asmodeanreborn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Yep. We had to jump through a lot of hoops to get municipal fiber in our community. Comcast and CenturyLink had managed to pay people off to enact local regulations against it.

It was so worth it in the end, though and now we pay $49.95 flat for 1Gbps up and down. Other communities in Colorado are following suit, which is probably why GOP introduced legislation in the House a couple of months ago to make municipal fiber illegal.

[–]5269636b417374 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Actively impeding civil progress in the name of profits

Get the fuck out of the way

[–]misfitx 12 points13 points  (0 children)

One of the coolest things my mom has done was fight for fiber in her area. It took years of petitioning.

[–]Mardo1234 18 points19 points  (11 children)

I want a static IP address and a server room in my basement.

[–]meese_geese 4 points5 points  (2 children)

Welcome to having fiber in a big city! I've had one for ages, and we have $65-$80/month gig.

ATT can go fuck themselves with my old server CPU heatsink. Every single exec and shitbrain that lobbied for slow internet can fuck the hell off.

I hope Starlink kills them dead.

[–]Anaxamenes 15 points16 points  (15 children)

This money should go to public utilities to build out fiber. They have the right of ways, the poles, the trucks and will hire some good paying jobs in rural areas. It makes sense wherever there is a public utility for them to do this instead.

[–]Xenopheb 2 points3 points  (0 children)

You are right on here. I build fiber networks for a living. My company does work for the big carriers, but my group caters to building for non-carriers. Cities, states, counties, etc. Working with muni or even state governments is tough. They have no idea how to design, build, or operate a network. I have to teach them everything, and half the time they still don’t get it. But electrical companies, especially co-ops (I love working with rural co-ops), they get it. They own pole infrastructure, or at least know how to deal with it. They understand easements and right-of-ways, lease agreements, own bucket trucks and employ linemen, etc. Many of them already have some fiber to run their grid. They just cant deal with the scale up front and specialty disciplines and tools of a big fiber network right away. I can do all the things they can’t in the short term while they get up to speed, then turn it over gracefully for them to operate once they are ready. Plus many co-ops are non-profit, so they are looking for ways to spend money and serve their rate payers better anyway.

I’ve always thought HOAs in the burbs might be a good avenue for building and maintaining fiber networks for neighborhoods. It would be nice to see them do something useful with my money instead of just being yard nazis. (I’m not bitter...)

AT&T will always fight this type of effort. It’s simple economics. It costs millions of dollars to build even modest fiber networks. For those carriers that already have those customers, there is very little incremental revenue for an over build, but huge capital overlay. They will continue to spend more money on lobbyists and politicians than their network because it has a better return on investment for them. Competition is the only way, but of course, they use their politicians and lobbyists to fight that too.

Sucks for us.

[–]DoomCircus 3 points4 points  (0 children)

says 10Mbps uploads are good enough

What if the government mandated that ISP executives must use their lowest available speed in their own homes to make them prove said speed is good enough?

I'm sure you'd start seeing much better available speeds lol.

[–]Jaybeux 4 points5 points  (0 children)

Our power company provides 1 gig fiber and it's great. Fuck AT&T, they had their chance and neglected our community for too long. A community owned cooperative is the way to go. If us Mississippians can kick AT&T in the balls you can too.

[–]Daggertrout 3 points4 points  (0 children)

Last year my electric co-op rolled out fiber to the neighborhood and I signed up as soon as I could. $50 a month for 100Mbps up and down. I called AT&T to cancel and they tried to upsell me from the $80 18Mbps down and told them what I was getting instead and they were like “well ok” lol

[–]rushmc1 8 points9 points  (0 children)

AT&T needs to cease to exist. There is no place for it in a modern society.

[–]Decimit_ 13 points14 points  (0 children)

How about AT&T kiss my ass and put the fiber into place the government paid for years ago!

[–]dreph 8 points9 points  (1 child)

I think this 20-30Mbps is still dogshit for upload if I’m downloading 200-500Mbps... I’m in the industry and my only thought is that they dont want you taking advantage of hosting on private internet, but I’ll be damned if I won’t host private game servers/Plex.

[–]FriendlyDespot 2 points3 points  (0 children)

It's mostly spectrum management. DOCSIS and most DSL have much more downstream capacity than upstream capacity by design, and you can't just reallocate spectrum on a 1:1 basis as upstreams will always be much more modulation and throughput constrained due to the hardware and the network architecture.

[–]camycamera 6 points7 points  (0 children)

Ah yes, the innovation of the free market at work!

“Nationwide fiber is too innovative, what we have now is good enough”

[–]Flatened-Earther 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I'd be happy if they provided that as a minimum upload speed, and 10x that for downloads.

[–]HashbeanSC2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I would say having upload speeds 20x faster than what I currently have would be good enough for me, yes... That would be more than 3x more downrate.

[–]Oldy1Kenobi 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Something, something Breakup of the Bell System

Does the US need to do something this again forcibly???

Also I have to laugh in a way because the UK got cable installed freely for TV when I was a child which is now the basis for the Virgin Media Cable Internet and you guys in the US have lobbyists halting the progress of connections, you may have faster speeds but you seem to get fucked over a lot of the time for choice of provider and COST!

[–]diab0lus 2 points3 points  (1 child)

I had gigabit fiber until the utility company that put up the poles forced the fiber company to disconnect it (the same poles that carry Comcast cable). Meanwhile my co-worker two blocks down has the same service uninterrupted because it didn’t use a pole. Enough people lost service that I think the fiber company is being sold.

[–]GARBANSO97 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If the speed was always at 100% I would be ok with 100/20 speeds. But because half the time I am only getting 50-75% of what im paying for I have to choose a 400/40 plan. Lately it has been stable at 330-350 download and 28-33 upload on average.

[–]GamingWithBilly 2 points3 points  (0 children)

If that's what they want to cap it at, then ok, I expect that to be a T1 styled connection where I'm guaranteed that speed at all times of day, and anytime it isn't they are legally supposed to pay me money back.

[–]chris17453 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I've got at&t fiber. 1 gig. I freakin love it.

[–]i_like_butt_grape 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Let’s not forget that AT&T gave the government all of our data illegally until it was found out and Congress passed the Protect America Bill to keep us from suing then to oblivion.

[–]natanaru 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Companies don't care about long term and this is one of those issues that they will refuse unless we as a people force them. If we get infrastructure in we will be golden, but getting that infrastructure is tedious and doesn't immediately turn a profit, which is not something companies like. Solutions to this should be to break up the companies , then give subsidies to get this infrastructure into local areas ( though with politicians in the pockets of big tech is pretty impossible)

[–]NostalgiaSchmaltz 2 points3 points  (3 children)

10 Mbps was "good enough" for like, 2005. Fuck off AT&T.

[–]Ok-Guarantee2066 2 points3 points  (0 children)

The reason why every apect of American life sucks balls: politics and lobbiests.

[–]cdegallo 2 points3 points  (0 children)

We just upgraded from a 100/10 local cable plan (good company, disappointing internet tiers in our area) to 1000/1000 fiber plan (ironically using at&t hardware, but through Sonic internet).

10mbps was nearly crippling.

10mbps as a standard speed is ridiculous.

[–]Wanderson90 2 points3 points  (0 children)

I hope Elon recoups his investment into starlink after a decade and then just makes it a free global internet so we can watch all these telcom giants crumble and burn.

[–]netherlanddwarf 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fucking cockblockers

[–]SeNiOr_TeChNiCiAn 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Either way, F AT&T!!!!!

[–]L0rdNyk0n 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Fuck you AT&T

[–]micromoses[🍰] 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Well, the pandemic must be ending soon, because the telecom companies have stopped pretending they give a shit about us in these "trying times."

[–]Smolensk 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Remember that time we gave like forty fucktillion in taxpayer money to companies like AT&T for nationwide fiber rollout in the nineties

Good times

[–]starmaker117 2 points3 points  (1 child)

Starlink is gonna fuck at&t in the ass until it is dead.

[–]Belkor 3 points4 points  (0 children)

US ISPs are so trash that they're actively holding back the entire US internet infrastructure.

[–]Caraes_Naur 22 points23 points  (2 children)

AT&T clearly does not want HBO Max to succeed. That or they don't understand how streaming works.

[–]AidsAcrossAmerica 33 points34 points  (1 child)

Don't need much upload to stream.

But yes ATT still sucks.

[–]Flatened-Earther 19 points20 points  (0 children)

But yes ATT still sucks.

My senior dad signed for ATT long distance.

Month 1, bill for 60 dollars, he sent a check, they deposited it, he has the cancelled check.

Month 2, late notice on month 1 with new bill including month 2 (120) he sent a check, they deposited it, he has the cancelled check.

Month 3, late notice on month 1 and 2 with new bill including month 1 and 2 (180) he sent a check, they deposited it, he has the cancelled check.

Month 4 they wanted $240....

LoL, he had to send copies of the cancelled checks to a lawyer before AT&T backed off and refunded him what he was owed.

[–]MadroxKran 15 points16 points  (10 children)

The internet needs to be publicly controlled. The private sector has completely failed and continues to try to screw us.

[–]Gryffon_Atarangi 8 points9 points  (5 children)

I live in a rural town in Canada. The nearest city is more than an hour away. I pay $70 a month for internet that has a DSL interface, goes over copper lines to the relay station, and even I have higher than 10 Mbps upload. What is AT&T smoking? Are they really that far behind?

[–]andylikescandy 7 points8 points  (1 child)

Cool.

Let's try a ROUTINE example, for someone working from home on a company laptop:

A 5GB PowerBI file translates to about 20GB of uploading (back up source data + publish). Assuming you upload at 6Mbps on average (sharing w/ spouse + 2 kids also virtual), that's an *entire workday* to upload something basic, which is prone to frequent changes/updates.

The paradigm is shifting, these people (AT&T, Comcast, Spectrum, etc) are literally trying to slow our entire economy down.

They have clearly demonstrated that they have absolutely no place being responsible for anything critical to society/our economy today.