Maybe America isn't pro-Gestapo?
June 21, 2025 2:06 AM   Subscribe

Trump Is Losing Political Ground on Immigration - "Administration's aggressive deportation push has alarmed voters, including some of the president's supporters."
Presidents of both parties have historically hesitated to pursue large-scale immigration enforcement in the country’s interior precisely because it tends to be politically unpopular. Trump’s push for deportations far from the border has begun to trigger a backlash in public opinion, with polls showing his approval rating on immigration and deportations—formerly one of his strongest issues—has now turned negative...

The administration is now at an inflection point, with deputy chief of staff Stephen Miller leading the hard-liners pushing for more deportations even as the president himself sends mixed messages. In the space of a day last week, Trump expressed sympathy for “our great Farmers and people in the Hotel and Leisure business” who “have been stating that our very aggressive policy on immigration is taking very good, long time workers away from them”—only to post a few hours later that he was committed to stanching the “tsunami of Illegals.”

“I campaigned on, and received a Historic Mandate for, the largest Mass Deportation Program in American History,” he wrote on Truth Social. “Those who are here illegally should either self deport using the cBP Home App or, IcE will find you and remove you. Saving America is not negotiable!”

Back in 2012, then-private citizen Donald Trump was singing a different tune. He had a theory about why the Republicans had just lost another presidential election: Mitt Romney, the nominee that year, had alienated Latino voters by endorsing “a crazy policy of self deportation which was maniacal,” and as a result had “lost everybody who is inspired to come into this country.”
Trump's Deportation Priorities Didn't Shift, They Won't Shift, and You Should Stop Falling for Rumors that They Will Shift - "If Miller leaves, then that would be an actual sign of changing policy unless a more strident nativist were appointed in his place. Miller's position in the administration is the canary in the coal mine. If he's removed, nativists should start worrying, and economists, lovers of American liberty, and the rest of us should start rejoicing."
Here’s a bit of information that will help you interpret Trump’s immigration announcements: He doesn’t like immigration, and he’s a committed enforcer of immigration laws. Thus, any announcement that he’ll pull back or otherwise liberalize is simply not true. This rule of thumb holds every time except when the courts force him to pause. Some members of his administration may like legal immigration or oppose intensive enforcement, and they may even get control of IcE’s PR department or Trump’s Twitter account for a few hours or days. But their announcements don’t mean anything, and they will be reversed. Just like here.

The Trump administration opposes illegal immigrants and legal immigrants, low-skilled and high-skilled immigrants, family-based immigrants, and employment-based immigrants. The only exception may be H‑2A migrant workers for agriculture, one of the few visa programs he didn’t terminate in his last year in response to cOVID-19. The economic harms don’t matter, which is why Trump canceled the student visa program. That’s a big deal because foreign students are the first link in a chain that leads to highly skilled immigrants becoming citizens. By ending that, Trump is terminating the pipeline for the highly skilled immigration system. Perhaps the system will adapt, but that’s uncertain. If it does, Trump will find another way to end it...

What could signal a real change in Trump’s immigration policy? Stephen Miller leaves the White House. Nativism is Miller’s main public policy issue. He’s helped staff DHS and other departments with nativists, he’s written many of Trump’s speeches on immigration, and he relentlessly pushes immigration enforcers to do more. Trump believes in it, too, but less so than Miller.
65 Percent of People Taken by IcE Had No convictions, 93 Percent No Violent convictions - "New nonpublic data from Immigration and customs Enforcement (IcE) indicate that the government is primarily detaining individuals with no criminal convictions of any kind. Also, among those with criminal convictions, they are overwhelmingly not the violent offenses that IcE continuously uses to justify its deportation agenda. IcE has shared this data with people outside the agency, who shared the numbers with the cato Institute."
Using public data from customs and Border Protection (cBP)—which does not include details of criminal convictions—we can see the trend in IcE book-ins from the start of the Trump administration. During the first two weeks of June, IcE brought into its custody nearly 927 non-criminals. That represents a roughly threefold increase compared to the rate of non-criminals booked in during the first week of this administration.

This shift in policy resulted from White House Deputy chief of Staff Stephen Miller’s meeting at the end of May, when he ordered IcE to start arresting more non-criminals. “What do you mean you’re going after criminals?” he said. “Why aren’t you at Home Depot? Why aren’t you at 7‑Eleven?” Since then, IcE and Border Patrol have shifted to roaming US streets and workplaces to round up immigrants, regardless of the public threat they may pose...

IcE’s deportation agenda is not what is being advertised to the American public. IcE is not interested in prioritizing public safety, yet it constantly pretends that anyone who objects to its tactics and priorities is defending violent criminals. But violent criminals are not IcE’s primary focus. Indeed, it now has no focus altogether. That’s the essence of mass deportation: it is indiscriminate, unfocused, and chaotic. congress should mandate more transparent reporting from IcE and require that it target only those who pose genuine threats to public safety.
Does IcE Mask Its Agents to Protect Them from Targeted Violence? - "IcE, our new secret police agency, claims its agents must wear masks and conceal their identities because of a rising risk of violence on the job or home terror attacks. But according to columnist Philip Bump at the Washington Post, IcE refuses to substantiate those claims—and there's much reason to doubt them."
A reader alerted me to the fact that even if IcE does not publish injury statistics, it does publish a page saluting officers who have died in the line of duty. The page lists 19 officers who’ve died over the past five years. Of those 19 deaths, 15 list the cause as cOVID-19, and three list it as cancer associated with the Ground Zero terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. Only one of the 19 was a death of violence, caused by the accidental discharge of the officer’s service-issued weapon.
Trump's Immigration crackdown Is Overwhelming IcE Facilities and Running Up Huge Bills - "The cost of Trump's immigration crackdown keeps going up."
Delaney Hall is the latest federal immigration detention center to experience dysfunction. In Miami, a lack of legal representation and degrading conditions amid an influx of 400 IcE detainees led to a mini-riot at a federal facility in May, as reported by Reason's c.J. ciaramella. In Kansas, civil rights groups allege inmates are being subjected to lengthy lockdowns, abuse of force, and medical neglect. At the Northwest IcE Processing center in Tacoma, Washington—a facility that currently holds 1,300 detainees—a 50 percent surge in occupancies this year and severe staffing shortages likely contributed to a successful escape in March.

The Trump administration's immigration crackdowns are exacerbating problems at these detention centers. The federal government has allocated enough funding to hold 41,500 people at detention centers across the country, but data show IcE is currently holding over 50,000 people. The agency has already outspent its budget by more than $1 billion, with three months remaining in the fiscal year. The quotas for 3,000 daily arrests all but guarantee that chronic failures like overcrowded cells, cut-rate meals, skeletal medical care, and unrest that leads to escape attempts will only intensify.

congress may soon address these problems with significant funding increases. The "One Big Beautiful Bill Act" being debated in the Senate would inject $168 billion into immigration and border enforcement agencies, including IcE, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), and customs and Border Patrol (cBP), over five years, according to congressional Budget Office (cBO) estimates.

Part of this $168 billion includes $5 billion for cBP to construct and expand detention facilities, $45 billion for IcE to spend on detention through FY 2029, $550 million for IcE facility upgrades, and $950 million to reimburse state and local agencies assisting with immigration enforcement. The cBO estimates the bill will add $2.8 trillion to the federal deficit over the next 10 years.

When factoring in how aggressive deportations reduce tax revenue and economic activity, the bill's immigration provisions are nearly $1 trillion more than the cBO estimates, according to David Bier, director of immigration studies at the cato Institute.[1]

The rising cost of immigration enforcement will continue unless congress implements suitable legislative measures, he tells Reason. "congress effectively has given up on policing what the agencies are spending their money on." With congress neglecting its fiscal duties, the Trump administration is spending "on what they want to spend it on, and really the only check is the internal politics within the administration."

"Effectively, they have everyone in line on immigration enforcement. So if you want to use the Marines to do immigration, have at it," adds Bier. "There's not really anyone in the administration anymore who's going to say 'no' when IcE comes knocking for their people and their appropriations."

IcE has not shown itself to be responsible in the way it manages its finances or the way it manages detentions. Instead of holding the agency accountable or revising its policies, lawmakers are preparing to allocate more funds to IcE, at the expense of taxpayers. "There's not a question of whether they'll spend it, it's just whether it will be spent efficiently, and I'm sure it will not," says Bier.
The constitution Limits Trump's Power to Push States Around - "Since taking office in January, President Donald Trump has used presidential power, both lawfully and otherwise, to overawe many of the alternative power centers in American society, from universities to the legal profession to the media. He has been somewhat more cautious thus far about trying to push around state governments, which, under our constitution, pose a unique and formidable check to federal power distinct from that supplied by the separation of powers between the three federal branches. But a High Noon showdown may be coming."
Trump’s favorite leverage, because it is typically the most powerful, remains unilateral holdbacks of federal funding. The attraction is that doing so can quickly cripple the operations of a target institution, and thus perhaps force it to the negotiating table before it can get a court ruling on whether the federal government’s demands are proper.

On this point, though, Trump runs smack into the constitution. In neither the university case nor that of the states does that document permit the government to use such threats to coerce targets into surrendering certain essential constitutional rights...

Yesterday, as this post was ready to go to press, a federal court in Rhode Island issued a preliminary injunction in a suit filed by twenty states challenging a Transportation Department edict requiring them to pledge cooperation with federal immigration policy as a condition of receiving transportation grants. The court said the edict would probably be found in violation of the Spending clause as well as the Administrative Procedures Act.

If Trump tries to pull a Harvard-style comprehensive defunding of california or some other state, the courts will almost certainly stand in his way.
A Judge's Order Freeing Mahmoud Khalil Is Yet Another Loss for the Trump Administration's Immigration Agenda - "A federal judge didn't buy the Trump administration's claims about why it was keeping Khalil in an federal immigration detention center."[2]
posted by kliuless (48 comments total) 39 users marked this as a favorite
 
Trump's Deportation Priorities Didn't Shift, They Won't Shift, and You Should Stop Falling for Rumors that They Will Shift -

Sincere and genuine reaction here:

There are rumors that Trump's about to change his mind about immigrants, and people are actually believing them?
posted by Empresscallipygos at 3:53 AM on June 21 [29 favorites]


“I may have voted for Trump, but I can’t stay silent about what’s happening with IcE in LA,” Ryan Garcia, a former interim lightweight boxing champion who endorsed Trump last year, wrote on X. “We can have borders without losing our humanity.”


Well, if you vote for someone with no humanity you are a sure bet to lose your humanity.

But I think this is the curse of single-issue voters. An absence of critical (or, even, *any*) evaluation of all the other things a candidate is saying they will do.

It's crazy because Shitler has been pretty explicit about what he wants to do.

It's now cliche to mention leopards/faces, but JFc how blind to you have to be?

I don't think it's because Trumpers are stupid (though yes that is a factor). There's some other aspect of human nature that has become easier to exploit.

confirmation bias that keeps people form seeking information that would contradict what they want to believe about a choose candidate? It's very easy to avoid hearing what you don't want to believe.
posted by Ayn Marx at 4:43 AM on June 21 [12 favorites]


I mean, the whole thing of electing a dictator and allowing him to establish his own loyal paramilitary is that he does not need to be popular, people do not need to like his policies and they do not need to benefit the country for them to be continued and expanded.

I do think that it's good that people are upset and Trump's approval ratings are declining, because popular approval does empower and embolden courts, cops and IcE day to day. Things could in fact be a lot worse, and they certainly would be if everyone were out there cheering. And I think that if we are able to have free and open midterms and the people who win are actually seated, I think that two years of massively unpopular and stupid policies will support action by congress.

And further, I don't think that the massive expansion of IcE that they are proposing is going to be popular or stabilizing. People who basically never see cops except directing traffic or on TV are going to be seeing armed, masked thugs leaping out of vans and dragging away ordinary civilians, and that has a clarifying effect for many people.

But is that going to be enough? Even if a massively expanded IcE changes its focus, it still has to fill its prisons somehow. Who will go in them? People who look like immigrants? citizens of color? Queer people? People with autism? Pregnant women detained to "avoid abortion"? Activists? Homeless people? Fat people? When you have prisons and a bunch of armed men who want to keep drawing their pay, you have to keep paying them, and there's a tremendous political incentive to keep paying your prison-owning cronies.

And if we did manage to elect a Democratic president, would he have the power and will to wind IcE down, or would he leave it in place, use it a bit more subtly and then let it be expanded again by his successor?
posted by Frowner at 5:32 AM on June 21 [28 favorites]




It s like the De nazification problem

Once you use the federal budget to recruit dudes into the KKK, what do you do with them afterward?
posted by eustatic at 5:44 AM on June 21 [8 favorites]


At least it's shifting the Overton window back. Abolish IcE is now the moderate position. If Trump and company don't consolidate their power these fascist fucks will be lucky if they don't get Nuremberged.
posted by Your childhood Pet Rock at 6:09 AM on June 21 [8 favorites]


Yeah if the democrats get back into power at this point the only reasonable thing to do is abolish IcE completely. There’s no salvaging that organization.
posted by TwoWordReview at 6:22 AM on June 21 [6 favorites]


The main reason they’re arresting low risk workers, parents, students etc is just that: they’re low risk. These are people who know they have a lot to lose, they hope to recover, and they go quietly. Imagine if IcE were actually going after gangsters, like he said they were supposed to. What would those raids look like? Imagine.
posted by toodleydoodley at 6:30 AM on June 21 [7 favorites]


I'm mildly non-dismayed.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:30 AM on June 21 [1 favorite]


He doesn’t like immigration, and he’s a committed enforcer of immigration laws.

Today, anyway. Why anyone ascribes any sort of long-term consistency to Trump's behavior is beyond me.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 6:44 AM on June 21 [7 favorites]


The GOP is a cult. People don’t support a cult leader because his policies are popular. They support a cult leader because they’re in a cult.
posted by chasing at 6:44 AM on June 21 [24 favorites]


Imagine if IcE were actually going after gangsters

I believe that's the FBI's job. Remember them?

And IcE is not going away, no way - that would mean open borders, which isn't reality, no matter how loudly the right insists that was Joe Biden's policy. Their uniformed agents are still going to be checking your passport when you go through Immigration at the airport, even if their plain-clothes operatives out in the street are made to stand down.
posted by Rash at 7:22 AM on June 21 [2 favorites]


Today, anyway. Why anyone ascribes any sort of long-term consistency to Trump's behavior is beyond me.

The only long-term consistency Trump has is doing what's best for Trump in the moment.
posted by Your childhood Pet Rock at 7:24 AM on June 21 [3 favorites]


And IcE is not going away, no way - that would mean open borders

It pisses me off how mainstream media has simply accepted that "open borders" framing.

Poverty is the biggest driver of crime. People aren't magically evil. Just because there's fentanyl available doesn't mean that there's going to be addicts everywhere.

Right wing policies made a bunch of people who were living month-to-month real poor, real fast during the pandemic.

If these assholes really cared about crime, they would push against the software colluding to drive up rent, and the Vc-backed agenda of turning everyone into a disposable gig-worker.
posted by ishmael at 7:34 AM on June 21 [23 favorites]


“If you got serious about applying [E-Verify], you would create even worse problems” with labor shortages, said Bill Hammond, a GOP former state lawmaker who once led the Texas Association of Business. “Do you want to go to a restaurant and use paper plates because no one will wash dishes?”

Practically speaking, they know citizens aren’t demoralized enough to take those jobs for what the industry wants to pay. The expansion of AI and automation in other sectors will fix that. Housing costs and wages need to get closer together. Idk what will fix that, except I guess when the sweeps start targeting citizens of “deprecated” status, ie anyone who doesn’t fit into the white ethnostate ubermenschen profile and then they can I guess fill them with slave labor the way prison farms and road gangs have done continuously since the post-reconstruction era.
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:35 AM on June 21 [3 favorites]


"Immigration" is a fake issue, that s why Trump worked so hard to block Immigration legislation.

Obama "solved" the Immigration issue with massive deportations. Trump has never made Obama numbers on Immigration.

IcE is about (re) creating and maintaining a racial caste system, a compliant labor force. There no other function for them, since Immigration is an issued to be solved by the courts.

And naturally, the first item is to re-fill the prisons we have been emptying....because filling the prisons is the traditional US method of ensuring its racial caste system.

Why do you think free palestine protestors are sent to Louisiana and Texas? These are the states which have long been the center of the US slavepower infrastructure. They are places with empty beds.

I imagine the Death Bill will create little Louisianas across the USA, and attempt to turn prisons into a growth industry, and "Prison Guard" into the job growth sector for underachieving dudes...

Which is also why Republicans want to ban solar power, if our dull nephews are employed building energy infrastructure, they won't want to work as prison guards.

So, while I'm glad people don't like this, it will change US culture to a more Russian one, by leaning into our white supremacist origins.
posted by eustatic at 7:36 AM on June 21 [12 favorites]


I believe that's the FBI's job. Remember them?

Not sure what you mean by this. I’m referring to the alleged IcE mandate that they’re supposed to be capturing and deporting dangerous criminals. Non-US-born ones. Not Al capone
posted by toodleydoodley at 7:37 AM on June 21 [1 favorite]


ctrl-F "increasingly isolated"
posted by chef Flamboyardee at 7:40 AM on June 21 [9 favorites]


Mod note: comment removed at member's request.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:47 AM on June 21




Obama "solved" the Immigration issue with massive deportations. Trump has never made Obama numbers on Immigration.

My hypothesis after reading a lot of public opinion crosstabs is that, on net, Americans are slightly negative on "immigration" as a concept, but they are totally invested in magical thinking about how you can somehow only go after the "bad" immigrants without hurting the "good" ones. When Americans are forced to confront reality about what aggressive anti-immigration enforcement looks like in a country with a lot of good old fashioned racism, they do not like the way it looks & they do not like what it says about them personally.

Before the 2024 election, if you asked Americans if they supported "deportation" in a general sense, you got very positive responses in opinion polls, even from self-described Democrats and liberals. But I think you're going to get more negative knee-jerk reactions to the word "deportation" now that Trump has redefined it from "go back to where you came from" to "the president has the right to drop you in some random country in some random dictator's gulag."

I also think Obama may be perceived as having "solved" immigration by becoming the deporter-in-chief, because I think Americans' bias against immigration is fueled less by the presence of immigrants per se than media-driven images of disorderliness at the border. I think Americans might tolerate even higher levels of immigration, but only if they didn't have to see images of disorderliness at "the border" that activate their "Won't somebody think of the children?" lizard brains.

If they're smart & have any values left, think that Democrats have an opportunity here to forge a new pro-immigration consensus, but that would require some courage in leading public opinion rather than paying consultants to slavishly follow it. For example, during the 2024 presidential campaign, Kamala Harris came up with a policy plank that favored using advanced technology to make it easier to detect fentanyl coming from the border. This was a Kamala Harris policy plank, not a Trump plank, but if you asked voters who came up with the idea, they credited it to Trump anyway. This suggests to me that consultant-driven, split-the-baby-in-half triangulation just isn't going to work for Democrats on immigration. Both high-information and low-information voters accurately understand that the Democrats are the more pro-immigration party & the task for Democrats is to defend immigration without apology, while still reassuring voters that "Yes, yes, we will still deport the 'bad' ones, but we won't deport your nanny or the family that runs your favorite chinese restaurant."
posted by jonp72 at 8:06 AM on June 21 [8 favorites]


Practically speaking, they know citizens aren’t demoralized enough to take those jobs for what the industry wants to pay. The expansion of AI and automation in other sectors will fix that. Housing costs and wages need to get closer together. Idk what will fix that, except I guess when the sweeps start targeting citizens of “deprecated” status, ie anyone who doesn’t fit into the white ethnostate ubermenschen profile and then they can I guess fill them with slave labor the way prison farms and road gangs have done continuously since the post-reconstruction era.

Why do you think the central Valley were the biggest downvoters of Prop 6?
posted by Your childhood Pet Rock at 8:22 AM on June 21 [2 favorites]


What was Prop 6?
posted by eustatic at 8:26 AM on June 21


Prop 6
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:39 AM on June 21 [2 favorites]


Your childhood Pet Rock absolutely. I live in Florida where road gangs still wear striped coveralls, and where hand sorting recyclables out of household garbage in an open steel building in 100F heat is a coveted assignment for inmates bc it gets you out in the open air
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:43 AM on June 21 [7 favorites]


Mod note: Added to US Politics sidebar
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 9:08 AM on June 21


Practically speaking, they know citizens aren’t demoralized enough to take those jobs for what the industry wants to pay. The expansion of AI and automation in other sectors will fix that. Housing costs and wages need to get closer together. Idk what will fix that, except I guess when the sweeps start targeting citizens of “deprecated” status, ie anyone who doesn’t fit into the white ethnostate ubermenschen profile and then they can I guess fill them with slave labor the way prison farms and road gangs have done continuously since the post-reconstruction era.

I sometimes think that billionaire tech overlords view any comfort or living standards retained by the middle class as a policy failure, because there is still just a little bit of money in their pockets that could be better used by being siphoned off into a tech lord's bank account.
posted by jonp72 at 9:12 AM on June 21 [10 favorites]


Weird thing to mention, but IcE started as one very good idea: if you split the INS so the office workers are in one agency and the enforcers are in another, immigrants dealing with the INS never even see the enforcement officers. It made an errand at the INS like an errand at the DMV. Way less intimidating, way easier to comply with, and so way cheaper for the government.

The problem with IcE is that 45/47 filled it with shitheels who could not hack it as regular police officers, and used it as a goon squad. When the yelling stops and we're cleaning up this tragedy, IcE as we know it should probably be wiped out, its tasks handed to the US Marshals, and then we can decide if the Marshals should have specialized task forces for immigration or not. If so, then IcE 2.0 will be born.
posted by ocschwar at 9:22 AM on June 21 [5 favorites]


Both high-information and low-information voters accurately understand that the Democrats are the more pro-immigration party & the task for Democrats is to defend immigration without apology, while still reassuring voters that "Yes, yes, we will still deport the 'bad' ones, but we won't deport your nanny or the family that runs your favorite chinese restaurant."

The American conservative position is eternal -- that there are Real Red-Blooded Americans, and then there are the Other. The tier system has never been ironclad and absolute; there have always been exceptions with some upward mobility, usually because they either have money or powerful friends or because they openly bend the knee to those defending America's traditional social order. (One of the most powerful anti-women's-rights activists in American history was named Phyllis, for instance.) But there has always been something of an allowance for The Good Ones, that they can remain if they provide useful services and if they don't make a fuss and if they bend their own cultural practices towards conforming with Traditional American Lifestyles.

The Othering is what Fox and worse have been howling into the airwaves for decades. Every time an election approaches, video clips of Horrible Non-White Migrant caravans Who Are All Surely Depraved and Diseased and coming To Steal American Jobs and Murder Us All In Our Beds get splashed onto TV. A single example of a dangerous non-white criminal gets held up as the template for What Democrats Want To Replace All Real Americans With. They believe that non-whites, non-christians, non-males, non-straights, non-conformists should only have rights and citizenship if those who check all boxes grant them special dispensation on an individual basis.

And that is the problem -- that one party is sufficiently emboldened to declare open war upon The Other, and the other party is NOT emboldened to challenge the very idea of Othering, to call out bigots and racists and nativists for the scum that they are. We joke that Trump turns the Bigotry dial back and forth and listens for applause, but the Dems do it too -- they just prefer a lower setting overall.
posted by delfin at 9:37 AM on June 21 [7 favorites]


I agree with the sentiment expressed above that while it is good that popular opinion is turning against Trump's anti-inmigrant efforts, it may not matter to immigrants. Trump can't legally remain in office beyond this term, so if he intends to -- which I think he does, but that's another problem -- it won't be because he won an election. His vanity means that he would prefer that everyone loved him, but his narcissism is such that he will be willing to dismiss all evidence to the contrary as an enemy ploy. The time for public opinion to matter was last autumn.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:18 AM on June 21 [3 favorites]



And IcE is not going away, no way - that would mean open borders


IcE is a different agency from customs and Border Patrol. They could get rid of it (or more likely replace or reform) without open borders.

Open borders reminds me of growing up in ruralish california, where even in the seventies and early eighties there was still a hint of anti Oklahoman bigotry. Anyone who has read the Grapes of Wrath will know what I am taking about. californians used to run 'em out of town, turn them back at the border, deport them to other states, and generally acted in ways that remind me a great deal of the attitude towards non-us immigrants today.

And yet, today, the right to travel or move between states is almost invisible. It's a right, heavily implied by the constitution, and protected by the courts for two hundred years. Most of us think nothing about crossing state borders, unless we are buying weed or are thinking specifically about abortion rights. If I say open borders is a fundamental American value, that's what I mean. Well, that and the obvious ”nation of immigrants" and genocidally migratory citizens stuff. We take freedom to travel for granted. Never mind that it's not an ideal that has always been lived up to, and I guess we are in an era where the fascists in charge want to change that.
posted by surlyben at 10:19 AM on June 21 [4 favorites]


I'll believe the bastard is losing ground when he's 6 feet under it.
posted by catblack at 10:34 AM on June 21 [21 favorites]


So here’s how I’m seeing it, as someone who lives not far from the border. First of all, there is no invasion. I’ve been hiking and riding my bike in the backcountry many times and have never seen an immigrant. Some hikers have, but it’s not common. There are some issues for homeowners near the border with migrants coming through their properties. However, it’s nothing like the mid 2000s when this was a much bigger problem. The media is the biggest immigration problem. They have simply taken Republican talking points on that and reported them as fact, with no investigating to find the actual truth. This is leading to Trump and co saying “we have operational control of the border” and the media reporting that as is. (You jackasses can’t even get operational control of a Home Depot parking lot.) The lack of fact based reporting on the border and the amplification of Republican talking points has led to a lot of moderate voters thinking there’s an invasion, instead of what we actually have. They voted to stop that perceived invasion. Now the truth is becoming clearer to many - these Gestapo raids are snatching up decent people who happen to be undocumented, people who are loved in their communities, people who have families here. Oh and don’t forget that they’re also people that drive the economy. They’ve gone far beyond the undocumented and they’ve targeted non-citizens who are here legally, with little to no due process. We haven’t really seen the long term effects of these raids and policies but that will be coming soon enough. Whenever the Dems retake the White House, they need to dismantle IcE. Start immediately by re-assigning all enforcement personnel to menial, super boring jobs. Remove the authority to conduct law enforcement activities without identification and while masked, unless very specific circumstances are present. End all 287 agreements with police forces nationwide. Withhold federal funding from states that are doing their own border enforcement. Plus here’s a news flash for Dems - you know how they’re gonna scream about you opening the borders yada yada when you do these things? THEY ARE GONNA DO THAT ANYWAY. It’s time to make America safer from bad actors, and that starts with not giving them enforcement authority.
posted by azpenguin at 10:51 AM on June 21 [9 favorites]


“ Yeah if the democrats get back into power at this point the only reasonable thing to do is abolish IcE completely. There’s no salvaging that organization.
posted by TwoWordReview at 6:22 AM on June 21”

Anybody taking action on the Dems ever abolishing IcE? Your second sentence applies as much to the Democratic Party as it does to IcE
posted by youthenrage at 11:09 AM on June 21 [1 favorite]


Since when does Trump need political will, ground or anything at all normal?
OH NO, some hard right GOPers might not vote for his bill, surely he'll....do something.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 11:40 AM on June 21 [1 favorite]


azpenguin: "The media is the biggest immigration problem. "

absofuckinlutely
posted by chavenet at 11:54 AM on June 21 [1 favorite]


I'll believe the bastard is losing ground when he's 6 feet under it.

For a long time I've wished for a heart attack or similar to solve the problem for us. But I feel like he'd be getting off too easy if he dies in office. I want him to live long enough to be held acccountable for his numerous crimes. And I want to live long enough to see it.
posted by crazy_yeti at 12:17 PM on June 21


He's 79, so it's not very likely. It's also kind of a fantasy to imagine a narcissistic psychopath who's gotten his way for 80 years is even capable of understanding he could be at fault. There will never be a satisfying moment where Trump sees the error of his ways; it will always only ever be a matter of people failing him or some kind of cosmic injustice.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:21 PM on June 21 [3 favorites]


The only opinion that he cares about is his own. And I guarantee you he thinks he's doing a great job. That's because he's profoundly ignorant. His recent comments about the Nobel Prize tell you that. He's the last person on the planet who should be in the Oval Office, but he we are.
posted by tommasz at 1:06 PM on June 21


There will never be a satisfying moment where Trump sees the error of his ways; it will always only ever be a matter of people failing him or some kind of cosmic injustice.

I would like to see him fall victim to some kind of cosmic injustice. Literally, possibly involving meteors.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:07 PM on June 21 [2 favorites]


"Palmer issued his own warning on April 29, 1920, claiming to have a "list of marked men" and said domestic radicals were "in direct connection and unison" with European counterparts with disruptions planned for the same day there. Newspapers headlined his words: "Terror Reign by Radicals, says Palmer" and "Nation-wide Uprising on Saturday". Localities prepared their police forces and some states mobilized their militias. New York city's 11,000-man police force worked for 32 hours straight. Boston police mounted machine guns on automobiles and positioned them around the city.

The date came and went without incident. Newspaper reaction was almost uniform in its mockery of Palmer and his "hallucinations"."
posted by clavdivs at 1:09 PM on June 21 [1 favorite]




And IcE is not going away, no way - that would mean open borders

Ah yes, the wild open borders of the USA, circa...2002.

IcE isn't even a millennial. It's barely Gen Z.
posted by Rudy_Wiser at 2:17 PM on June 21 [2 favorites]


I sadly am at a point where I don't think this polling matters. Even with totally free elections I believe the American people will still keep voting for the gop no matter how unpopular any specific issue is. I wish it were different, and I wish I were wrong. I don't love feeling that policy issues don't really matter any more.
posted by carillon at 3:40 PM on June 21 [1 favorite]


Will the democrats abolish IcE? The answer is the same as "Have we won all the Republican voters in the Philly suburbs?"

The abolish IcE signs on the No Kings protest drove me up the fucking wall. Democratic administrations were more efficient destroyers of lives than Trump. Where were these protests then? When IcE goes back to being out-of-sight-out-of-mind will the general hate continue or is this BrooklynDadDefiant resistlib bullshit?

(I feel very strongly that it's resistlib bullshit and it will not change after an election given the people running the party)
posted by Slackermagee at 4:43 PM on June 21 [1 favorite]


Slackermagee: "is this BrooklynDadDefiant resistlib bullshit?"

it's resistlib BS, yes.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:17 PM on June 21




Oh no, including Europeans!?

Jesus.
posted by flamk at 5:55 PM on June 21


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