*insert joke about only doctors being able to afford TO real estate here*
posted by Kitteh at 6:41 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]

UBC Vancouver is reopening their graduate application process for US prospective students with quick admissions decisions. It's very clearly being offered as an escape pod. (if only I had any sort of useful educational background or aptitude...)
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:47 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]

Just checking:

Are we going to let them actually be doctors when they get here?

Or are we going to make them drive Ubers for a decade first while they try to scrape together enough time and money to recertify?
posted by jacquilynne at 6:47 AM on April 8 [18 favorites]

Your country, your call, jacquilynne.
posted by ocschwar at 6:49 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]

Forget doctors and scientists, what Canada really needs is an influx of American middle-managers proficient in Excel!
posted by mittens at 6:54 AM on April 8 [16 favorites]

Or are we going to make them drive Ubers for a decade first while they try to scrape together enough time and money to recertify?

If they even can. I have someone in my sphere who ran an infertility clinic overseas, has a PhD as well as MD, extremely respected...and there are precisely zero residencies for ob/gyn in Canada available, and so that person probably can never practice in their area again despite passing all the exams, which is heartbreaking.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:55 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]

I mean, it is definitely not my call, because I am constantly infuriated by this issue every time I talk to an Uber driver with a PhD or an MD or a PEng who speaks 4 languages but can't afford to not get paid for 2 years while he tries to prove to Canada that he can do the job he has already been doing for a decade, and if it was my call, we would have fucking fixed that issue already.
posted by jacquilynne at 6:55 AM on April 8 [17 favorites]

Are we going to let them actually be doctors when they get here?

My impression is that they are looking for researchers more than they are family doctors, even though we need those more.
posted by Kitteh at 6:57 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]

what Canada really needs is an influx of American middle-managers proficient in Excel!

Nah, we got plenty of our own that fill this role thanks.
posted by Kitteh at 6:58 AM on April 8

If anyone wants to retreat into fiction at a time like this, may I recommend the early 2000s Canadian television show ReGenesis. Set at NorBAC, the North American Biotechnology Advisory Council (I think, I will not be googling to double check), it features scientists and doctors from Canada, Mexico, and the United States who have come to Toronto for better access to science policy to do their research. Yes, you know there's a stem cell plot. Everyone really hates Bush, it's nice.
posted by phunniemee at 6:59 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]

I should note I think US doctors are treated differently, but don't quote me on that.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:59 AM on April 8

Additional plugs for ReGenesis: it features a baby Elliot Page over a story arc and there is a nice dog.
posted by phunniemee at 7:02 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]

My impression is that they are looking for researchers more than they are family doctors, even though we need those more.

Well, the Trump administration didn't just fire or eliminate funding for thousands of family doctors, but it's early days yet.
posted by jedicus at 7:03 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]

*insert joke about only doctors being able to afford TO real estate here*


You guys have all the lumber and minerals that Trump wants to tariff. You can do lots more urban infill in Toronto.

(Though really, it doesn't;'t have to be TO. Halifax is lovely. Sidney too. I bet Yarmouth and Kitchener are as well. Wherever you put the openings, people will come.)
posted by ocschwar at 7:04 AM on April 8

Well, University Health Toronto is putting the largest call and that means you would have to live in the city or one of the smaller ring suburbs. It's already hard for Canadian researchers and doctors to want to go to smaller cities and towns; Toronto has its own terrible gravity for a lot of high-paying professions.

Well, the Trump administration didn't just fire or eliminate funding for thousands of family doctors, but it's early days yet.


lol they can't gouge patients here like they do in the US so they will not like our system
posted by Kitteh at 7:08 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]

I hate to break it to y'all, but these scientists are already being bused into their new peoples' communes to do the glorious labor of screwing in tiny li'l screws into iPhones when the factories bloom like roses throughout the land.
posted by NoMich at 7:11 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]

I know many, many scientists who are considering this "option". Just as many budgets are being cut in Canada and Europe, and jobs are tight for home-grown students/postdocs there too. There are some splashy "superstar" poaching events, but there is no way the loss of capacity in the US's downfall can be made up for in the current system.

People just don't understand how the vast scale of US money has driven worldwide science and medicine for the last few decades - the US budget dwarfs Canada, and is significantly larger than the entire EU in these sectors. With the eviscerations, It's gonna be grim.
posted by lalochezia at 7:13 AM on April 8 [15 favorites]

Well, sure, you may think there are lots of doctorin' jobs and lawyerin' jobs in Toronto, but maybe you better watch this first. (Warning: contains explicit footage of Yonge Street.)
posted by dannyboybell at 7:28 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]

Isn't this the point in the story where a wealthy mad-man with a vision hires up dozens-hundreds of now-available scientists to work on a remote island on their immoral but possibly world-saving plot device?
posted by johnabbe at 7:34 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]

I'm glad you included the article about local scholars and researchers being frustrated that fleeing Americans are going to take away some of the few opportunities they have for decently paid work.
posted by Dalekdad at 7:36 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]

Most Canadian provinces now have expedited certification processes for American credentialed physicians. Yes there are a lot of PhDs losing their jobs, but many of those are MD-PhDs. There are options and possibilities here, for both sides.
posted by 1adam12 at 7:41 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]

lol they can't gouge patients here like they do in the US so they will not like our system

Just for the record, every doctor I have ever seen somewhat regularly (in a very liberal city ) has mentioned something to the effect of "this system is awful, I wish we had single payer and a patient-centered system". There are some specialties which attract people who want to make a LOT of money, but family medicine and other more widely-needed specialties attract people who first and foremost want to be doctors. Also, doctors in the US don't make what they used to make - for many doctors, it's "fifteen minutes with a patient every fifteen minutes all day" with the HMO or big practice breathing down your neck and the big profits NOT going to the doctors.

I have some professional connections with doctors, and I bet that if it were appropriate to poll them, I'd get a HUGE number who'd gladly trade the US and our system for a lower-paying but more patient-centered work life elsewhere.

Not that I want to freeze out Canadian doctors or think that this is a great solution to the US's self-inflicted problems, I just feel that people often think that doctors are the problem and they often aren't.
posted by Frowner at 7:59 AM on April 8 [21 favorites]

I don't think they would mostly find the system all that much more patient centric, tbh. The billing is definitely easier, so you can spend time with more patients and less time yelling at insurance companies, but you still have to churn through a patient every 10-15 minutes.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:04 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]

There are some specialties which attract people who want to make a LOT of money, but family medicine and other more widely-needed specialties attract people who first and foremost want to be doctors.

But this is the problem. I worked at a family health team for three years where Queen's University med grads spent a few years in the family medicine system to get a taste of it. Out of the dozens we had each year, I can think of two who went on to choose family medicine.

Our healthcare system right now is very precarious. Family doctors may not make as much as the specialists but the amount of paperwork they have to do per patient, with massive 1000+ patient rosters, a limited amount of time they are allowed to see patients, makes for a very very uneven work-life balance. I had doctors whose paperwork stacked up in their inboxes who would have to do it after clinic hours and into their free time with their families. It's punishing. Med students would rather specialize for more money and more work-life balance. I've worked in Canadian healthcare in three different ways: hospital staffing for the largest SE Ontario hospital network (a horror show), family medicine (upsetting but heartening in that people's ability to see a doctor hinges on if they have one, not if they can afford it) , and currently mental health for ASD w/ID patients.

So much is underfunded. And there's a very Conservative push for private healthcare to come up here. Obviously, as an American, I am against that. I've seen what the US system has done to me and my family and would not wish that on anyone.
posted by Kitteh at 8:16 AM on April 8 [5 favorites]

On the experiences of US doctors in the Canadian system: ‘It’s a golden ticket’: U.S. doctors explain the urge to come to Canada. Surprisingly pay isn't a major barrier.
posted by bonehead at 9:03 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]

Using jacquilynne's concern, I will be miffed if US doctors kinda get to cut the line over doctors outside of the US who don't nearly get the same chance to practice their fields. She's not wrong; I too have met many immigrants to Canada who have degrees from non-North American universities who come here to help us with our family doctor shortage but are left driving cabs or delivering for Uber instead.
posted by Kitteh at 9:09 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]

lalochezia's comment is a key under-discussed element of this situation for biosci and STEM in general.

Canada (and others) benefit people's personal safety. They may have (some) jobs with livable salaries. They do not and can not support research and research funding at the scale the US offered. A clinical research friend with Canadian family was interviewing at one of the most famous Canadian universities and a mid-tier US one. They explained that in Canada they would need to start writing proposals to stitch together small pots of money from various sources to then rent/borrow equipment time at a portfolio of facilities to do their day to day work. Finding support for students and postdocs would be a challenge.

In contrast, the ho-hum US institution offered them access to the full scope of the equipment needed either in their own lab space or down the hall, as well as a large enough start-up package to start work and hire a postdoc on day 1.

It's also useful to look who runs/supports the biggest most impactful scientific conferences and associations :

The American Physical Society is the institution that runs the Global Physics Summit, 50K+ members internationally
The American Chemical Society runs one of the most impactful annual chemistry meetings, 200K+ members
APA - American Psychological Association runs one of the top psych meetings, 157K members
American Society of Mechanical Engineers runs one of the top ME conferences, ~100K members
Biology research splits among its subdisciplines, but as one example, the Society for Neuroscience runs one of the biggest annual international conferences (30K+ members) and is headquartered in DC.

Yes, individual conferences are (ideally) supported by registration and the international membership, but the societies themselves are nonprofits that backstop the meetings, support trainees, outreach and centralized initiatives with centralized huge amounts of US money. Even if Canada (et al.) can bring in the scientists, the net outcomes will not be the same without the overall science.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 9:13 AM on April 8 [9 favorites]

Yes, the rest of the world does understand the might and benefit of US research.

That time came to a very abrupt end and it will take probably a decade or more for the rest of us to step in, particularly in the middle of a global recession set off by the US's mad king. We all know our kids will not benefit from the research that could have been done during that time. However, a great first step up here in Canada is opening the conversation with great people and seeing what we can accomplish.

Thanks for being sure to enlighten us in this thread, but it's truly unnecessary.
posted by warriorqueen at 9:28 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]

It does come off as half-defeatist and half-boasting, doesn't it?

It's sort of like when we worry about annexation, Americans might loathe the might of their military but remind us that their military is very good, very strong. So it goes with everything else because the US has strong-armed the entire world before this happened.
posted by Kitteh at 9:32 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]

Thank you for your input. As one of the scientists affected who has been considering these initiatives and runs an org supporting international science, I'm thrilled to hear that I'm being both boastful and defeatist when trying to communicate the scope of the infrastructure initiatives that my experience suggests will also needed beyond filling largely existing positions with a fraction of individuals (who, like me, would lose access to the things they need to do their work if they move).

I'm out.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 9:43 AM on April 8 [8 favorites]

That escalated quickly...
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:52 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]

I'm a family doc and a researcher with about a year left before PSLF kicks in on my nearly half-million of med school debt after almost a decade of monthly payments and daily service. In the last 10 years I've worked in underfunded government clinics, managed a COVID testing site for the homeless, and worked in an unheated mobile addiction medicine van at the epicenter of the overdose epidemic. If they renege on that promise of loan forgiveness in exchange for service (as they currently intend), I'm also out.
posted by Richard Saunders at 10:02 AM on April 8 [7 favorites]

when trying to communicate the scope of the infrastructure initiatives that my experience suggests will also needed

Okay but...you didn't. It came across like a right-wing talking point about how the Rest Of The World Don't Appreciate Us None. Do you really think that Canadian research institutions are unaware of the differences, and that researchers in their fields aren't aware of the differences? Do you think the University Health Network which is a top-tier institution in the world despite being in Canada and not a very long flight from similar US institutions doesn't know how to set up a research programme?

Did you read the articles, which address how well Canadians know there is insufficient infrastructure and is a call to create it?

It's like the articles say "we might like to have cars, we should see about getting some but also we need to build roads and gas stations" and you came in saying "did you know the US has all these gas stations and roads?"*
posted by warriorqueen at 10:50 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]

I'm so tired of American exceptionalism.
posted by warriorqueen at 10:51 AM on April 8 [6 favorites]

ANYway, I would happily trade Jordan Peterson acolyte Bruce Pardy for a much better professor from the US.
posted by Kitteh at 11:29 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]

Einstein and Gödel both came to the US to get away from the Nazis; Einstein in 1933, Gödel in 1939 just after WWII started. They were two of many who fled persecution, discrimination, and lack of support.

I don't know how sustainable a claim that the Allies would have lost the war if that hadn't happened might be, but at least there's a case to be made.

The world-wide consequences of Trump's comprehensive attacks on science will be profound whether his other blunderings precipitate war or not — and not just for Canada, of course.
posted by jamjam at 11:30 AM on April 8

I'm so tired of American exceptionalism.

It was a firsthand account of the tradeoffs US researchers have to consider if they want to move here. Seems like a relevant and useful contribution to the thread to me.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 11:34 AM on April 8 [11 favorites]

We'll obviously have fewer researchers worldwide given the funding changes in the US, meaning much more current PhDs must find something outside research. Academia always had this ponzi-scheme structure where professors must output multiple professors, well the bubble popped folks. :)

Instead of Canada, I'd honestly suggest that laboratory researchers seriously consider Asia, including China, especcially assuming BlueBlueElectricBlue remarks that larger laboratory funding looks difficult in Canada. China is still building Universities, although slower than before. India is building universities too, but much lower sallary.

CATO 2023: Abandoning the US, More Scientists Go to China
"The [Biden] administration continues to maintain contrary to evidence that Chinese industrial espionage—by scientists working in the United States—is a significant threat to the country. Universities and U.S. companies think the far greater threat is losing out on talented Chinese researchers."

You'd consider different options if you already speak a language besides English, especially South America for Spanish. I suppose EU defense contractors and pharmaceutical companies maybe hiring researchers in relevant fields, like materials engineering or biotechnology. In fact XBridge helps German pharmaceutical companies buy out your NIH grant. I doubt European academia absorbs too many U.S. researchers though, because they've their own overfull PhD pipeline and overall neoliberals cut research funding in the UK, France, Germany, etc.

Anecdotally, Canada's small-ish grants systems sounds okay for mathematics, computer science, and similar, where you primarily want some travel money and the occasional teaching reduction.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:38 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]

Yeah, this is not a good time to be looking for uni employment in the UK.
posted by biffa at 11:42 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]

Also, we've focused upon universirty research, because of the NIH cuts, but we'd expect an even larger exodus in public health and enviromental sciences, given the cuts to the CDC, Forest Service, etc. Almost all governments have similar jobs, so really these people should apply wherever they'd feel useful, assuning they're interested in moving abroad.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:56 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]

Meanwhile, in France, Aix Marseille University Ready to Welcome American Scientists.
posted by gimonca at 12:40 PM on April 8

Instead of Canada, I'd honestly suggest that laboratory researchers seriously consider Asia, including China

I'm not sure that people fleeing a growing authoritarianism in the US really want to decamp into a full-fledged dictatorship.

(I have a great admiration for Chinese culture and history - and a healthy fear of its government).
posted by jb at 12:44 PM on April 8 [2 favorites]

Ok some of us won’t even run a google so for community service:

Yes they can be doctors for example BC has recently changed licensing requirements that takes the doctor licensing down from 5-8months to 6weeks.

My current family doctor is Canadian who studied stateside (left a while ago though)
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:51 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]

Einstein and Gödel both came to the US to get away from the Nazis; Einstein in 1933, Gödel in 1939 just after WWII started. [...] I don't know how sustainable a claim that the Allies would have lost the war if that hadn't happened might be, but at least there's a case to be made.

My grandfather came to the US during the war to work on the Manhattan project. Where was he before?

Canada.
posted by nickmark at 1:03 PM on April 8

I'm a Canadian scientist who's worked in the US and Canada and I thought BlueBlue's comment was very valuable. Science funding in Canada is totally different than in the US and will have to have a total overhaul (and huge increases of funding) in order to get somewhere near to the US system. Honestly, the Canadian system will be an unpleasant shock to American scientists, enough to maybe keep them away.

And that said, we have a glut of Canadian scientists who need jobs! Not in some fields but in my weird slice of the world I know tons of scientists that can't find funding or permanent jobs. The government? I have a lot of thoughts that I'm too annoyed to type on my tiny phone keyboard. We don't need US Forest Service scientists, we have great Canadian forest scientists that need more stable and better paid work!

Although I do hope my USFS friend comes up here.
posted by hydrobatidae at 1:14 PM on April 8 [4 favorites]

Using jacquilynne's concern, I will be miffed if US doctors kinda get to cut the line over doctors outside of the US who don't nearly get the same chance to practice their fields.

The situation with doctors not being able to practice is, I agree, really bad both for the doctors involved and for Canada.

However, prepare to be miffed, because NAFTA/CUSMA means they will more or less skip the line. It works both ways (or it did up until now, I don't know what's happening currently). I was in charge of helping get new faculty hires licensed at Vanderbilt up until spring of last year when I moved away. Doctors who had been educated in Canada in theory were treated the same as doctors educated in the States - in practice their Tennessee licensure always seemed to take an extra couple weeks, but it wasn't anything egregrious, it would be like 10 weeks instead of 8 (and that may have more to do with mail processing times than anything, since Canada Post is so slow compared to USPS). The difficulty was always with getting them permission to *work* (like their visa or green card or whatever) but licensure was a breeze. Everybody else took longer (way way longer) to get licensure. Under the current rules, I would expect MDs educated in the US to be treated almost as if they had a domestic education in Canada.

Tim Houston (of all people) started a program in Nova Scotia (or maybe took credit for a program Dalhousie was starting anyway, I dunno) where foreign-educated doctors are matched up with a Canadian supervising doctor for a course that makes sure they know what they're doing and then they become normally licensed. They only have so many spots though so I gather it's slow going working through the backlog.
posted by joannemerriam at 1:57 PM on April 8

Operation Eh-perclip.
posted by BiggerJ at 5:13 PM on April 8

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