Adolescence, and toxic masculinity
March 25, 2025 6:52 AM Subscribe
The Guardian: “Jamie has fallen under the spell of misogynistic influencers and suffered cyber-bullying for being an “incel”. His parents admit that he would shut himself in his bedroom and be on his computer long into the night. They assumed he was safe but he was secretly being radicalised. His story highlights the corrosive impact of social media on impressionable minds and has resonated profoundly with audiences. Parents of teenagers have been watching rapt, heartbroken and horrified in equal measure – with the show clocking up an astonishing 24.3m views in its first four days of release, four times more than the number two show. It tops the Netflix ratings in 71 countries, ranging from Chile to Vietnam.” [Also on FanFare]
* Guardian: Is this the most terrifying TV show of our times? Adolescence, the drama that will horrify all parents.
* The Standard: Is Andrew Tate an incel? Explaining the 'manosphere' terms in Netflix's Adolescence.
* BBC: Netflix's Adolescence makes UK TV ratings history
* Mirror: Netflix's Adolescence: The hidden meaning behind Jamie's half-eaten sandwich scene.
* Metro: The ‘harmful’ blackpill philosophy Netflix’s Adolescence didn’t tell you about.
* Guardian: Is this the most terrifying TV show of our times? Adolescence, the drama that will horrify all parents.
* The Standard: Is Andrew Tate an incel? Explaining the 'manosphere' terms in Netflix's Adolescence.
* BBC: Netflix's Adolescence makes UK TV ratings history
* Mirror: Netflix's Adolescence: The hidden meaning behind Jamie's half-eaten sandwich scene.
* Metro: The ‘harmful’ blackpill philosophy Netflix’s Adolescence didn’t tell you about.
My brother was going to be watching this with my niece. Uncle better catch up.
posted by ginger.beef at 7:36 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
posted by ginger.beef at 7:36 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Watched this, and then chatted about it over tacos and drinks with my husband and about-to-turn-12 year old. Was relieved that 12 year old was new to some of the concepts, 'red pill' and 'incel' for example, but as we were talking about it he connected it to some other things he does know about, like Andrew Tate. This show was a terrifying watch.
posted by fennario at 7:44 AM on March 25 [6 favorites]
posted by fennario at 7:44 AM on March 25 [6 favorites]
The thing that I'm a bit uneasy about is that a lot of the furor is taking the approach that "we need to do something because it's affecting the safety of young girls". But I'm not seeing similar calls for "we need to do something because it's affecting the mental health of young boys."
I have a niece and a nephew; they are both in their teens, and really, really great kids, both studious, kind, funny, sweet. But my nephew in particular is becoming a bit of a mini-Me - he has a bit of a weirdo brain, he's heavily into art and anime and music as much as he is sports, and he tried to start an existential conversation over Thanksgiving dinner one year (the rest of the family blinked, but I just told them "I recognize this brain, I got this" and kept things going). People are even starting to remark that we look alike. And if anyone gets their claws on that kid I will go off the chain in his defense.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:04 AM on March 25 [31 favorites]
I have a niece and a nephew; they are both in their teens, and really, really great kids, both studious, kind, funny, sweet. But my nephew in particular is becoming a bit of a mini-Me - he has a bit of a weirdo brain, he's heavily into art and anime and music as much as he is sports, and he tried to start an existential conversation over Thanksgiving dinner one year (the rest of the family blinked, but I just told them "I recognize this brain, I got this" and kept things going). People are even starting to remark that we look alike. And if anyone gets their claws on that kid I will go off the chain in his defense.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:04 AM on March 25 [31 favorites]
Two things I genuinely wonder about - that is, I'm not asking questions as a gotcha:
1. How many tween/teen boys are really deeply engaged with these ideas to the extent that they act on them? Let's consider "acting on them" to include fairly minor stuff but not necessarily every act of misogyny, since we've all been in school systems and experienced widespread baked in misogyny long before Tate, etc. I think this is an answerable question - I'm not trying to say "this is more of the adults complaining about the youths".
2. One thing I worry about and it may just be the result of a seriously bullied youth: when I hear about a lot of pop culture attention being focused on a youth problem, especially a problem that can be cast as just "being cool" or "being rebellious" (like violence and violent misogyny) I worry that it will simply normalize the behavior, and that the teen/tween takeaway is not going to be "this is a scary consequence of seemingly everyday behavior, better tell a grownup" but "regular boys get really violent, boys have contempt for girls including the girls they ask out, and this is so normal and common that they made a whole TV show about it".
I will say that there were a number of TV shows about serious youth problems when I was growing up, and they did not in fact have the desired effect on the youth.
posted by Frowner at 8:10 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
1. How many tween/teen boys are really deeply engaged with these ideas to the extent that they act on them? Let's consider "acting on them" to include fairly minor stuff but not necessarily every act of misogyny, since we've all been in school systems and experienced widespread baked in misogyny long before Tate, etc. I think this is an answerable question - I'm not trying to say "this is more of the adults complaining about the youths".
2. One thing I worry about and it may just be the result of a seriously bullied youth: when I hear about a lot of pop culture attention being focused on a youth problem, especially a problem that can be cast as just "being cool" or "being rebellious" (like violence and violent misogyny) I worry that it will simply normalize the behavior, and that the teen/tween takeaway is not going to be "this is a scary consequence of seemingly everyday behavior, better tell a grownup" but "regular boys get really violent, boys have contempt for girls including the girls they ask out, and this is so normal and common that they made a whole TV show about it".
I will say that there were a number of TV shows about serious youth problems when I was growing up, and they did not in fact have the desired effect on the youth.
posted by Frowner at 8:10 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
I haven't watched the show (my wife did, and found it emotionally manipulative though well-acted), but to Frowner's point what I know of it makes it sound like Kids updated for the modern day.
posted by nickmark at 8:14 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
posted by nickmark at 8:14 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Is there any sexual abuse?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:20 AM on March 25
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:20 AM on March 25
Building on Empress and Frowner's points... People can't worry too much about the mental health of young boys, because the toxic model is only a slight exaggeration of socially "desirable" traits of strong dominance/authority orientation and empathy strictly delimited to members of the in-group. It's a through line that runs from football to Wall Street, touching nearly every workplace, with the culture of hegemonic militarism squatting grossly in the middle.
As happy as I am that this show was made (as it's a topic that desperately needs addressing), I have confidence that it doesn't turn to face the mirror fully enough.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 8:23 AM on March 25 [30 favorites]
As happy as I am that this show was made (as it's a topic that desperately needs addressing), I have confidence that it doesn't turn to face the mirror fully enough.
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 8:23 AM on March 25 [30 favorites]
In as much as four decades ago being shut up in your room meant you were alone and in order to be “corrupted” by shitty peers and skeevy adults you had to go outside; and today those things can happen in anytime, anywhere — this show will wake up a lot of parents who are foolishly assuming their shy stay at home boys are just reading books or wanking behind a closed door.
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:27 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 8:27 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I haven't watched the show, but a benefit I see as a high school teacher is that parents may become more educated about misogynistic radicalization. Most adults have no idea who Andrew Tate is; their male children idolize him.
posted by chaiminda at 8:27 AM on March 25 [15 favorites]
posted by chaiminda at 8:27 AM on March 25 [15 favorites]
As, as mentioned above, the parent of an about-to-be-12 year old, focusing on male mental health and developing healthy masculinity is something my husband and I have been engaged with for my son's whole life and I STILL don't know if it will be enough. I started thinking about this when he was a toddler, literally.
>this show will wake up a lot of parents who are foolishly assuming their shy stay at home boys are just reading books or wanking behind a closed door.
My kid's PC and video game consoles are kept in the family room, and as much as husband and I sometimes get so tired of Fortnite video calls happening constantly in our family room making it hard to use the space comfortably ourselves, this is part of why. I cannot believe the parents of his peers who are just now buying PC's for their sons, are putting them in the bedrooms. I know the location of the device isn't everything, especially when kids have phones and ipads (which, in our home, are also not allowed in bedrooms after 9pm; and my kid is a "family room kid" not a "bedroom kid" as yet), but the important thing to me is that it remains normal and natural that we know what his conversations sound like, we know how they are treating each other online (we read messages, and have disclosed that to him, no secrecy). I don't know, we are trying to keep it as comfortable as we can for as long as possible for things to be in the open, for him to see that we don't judge or jump down his throat about every comment. We are choosy about what we correct and what we let go, and why.
It's a scary time to be a parent, of any child, anywhere on the gender spectrum. Different gender identities have different unique challenges, but it's definitely not an easy time.
posted by fennario at 8:35 AM on March 25 [20 favorites]
>this show will wake up a lot of parents who are foolishly assuming their shy stay at home boys are just reading books or wanking behind a closed door.
My kid's PC and video game consoles are kept in the family room, and as much as husband and I sometimes get so tired of Fortnite video calls happening constantly in our family room making it hard to use the space comfortably ourselves, this is part of why. I cannot believe the parents of his peers who are just now buying PC's for their sons, are putting them in the bedrooms. I know the location of the device isn't everything, especially when kids have phones and ipads (which, in our home, are also not allowed in bedrooms after 9pm; and my kid is a "family room kid" not a "bedroom kid" as yet), but the important thing to me is that it remains normal and natural that we know what his conversations sound like, we know how they are treating each other online (we read messages, and have disclosed that to him, no secrecy). I don't know, we are trying to keep it as comfortable as we can for as long as possible for things to be in the open, for him to see that we don't judge or jump down his throat about every comment. We are choosy about what we correct and what we let go, and why.
It's a scary time to be a parent, of any child, anywhere on the gender spectrum. Different gender identities have different unique challenges, but it's definitely not an easy time.
posted by fennario at 8:35 AM on March 25 [20 favorites]
This show was terrifying and I don't even have kids. I understand that kids at some point need privacy and trust, but nothing good happens on the internet for kids after 10:00. I have very good friends who have a boy this age and ignore most of his casual references to Hitler and Nazis that he manages to drop into every conversation. We don't go over there really anymore because I see it even if they do not. He was 8 years old and playing online games with people his parents were sure were other kids even though they admitted they didn't ever check.
I don't know how someone parents today if the internet is on 24/7.
posted by archimago at 8:35 AM on March 25 [10 favorites]
I don't know how someone parents today if the internet is on 24/7.
posted by archimago at 8:35 AM on March 25 [10 favorites]
So this is the best television I've ever seen.
I watched one episode casually because it sounded interesting. Then I watched the other three episodes because I couldn't stop watching. When they finished at 2:30 am, I seriously considered just starting over and watching it straight through again.
It is brilliant. Brilliantly written, brilliantly acted, brilliantly shot. Every hour-long episode is ONE SHOT. It's going to have Emmy and BAFTA awards coming out it's arse.
It is squarely about mental health and boys. That is the entire four hour focus. Anyone who doesn't think the mental health of boys and teens is being red-pilled from online content is mistaken and needs to go look at Andrew Tates subscriber and follower counts and maybe spend some time time listening to Joe Rogan, America's most listened to podcaster until last month.
I think one of the things the show does best is illustrate how insidious this kind of indoctrination is, but also how normal and lovable your son is while he holding these thoughts and his head and saying these things when you're not around still is.
This family could literally be any family, the most normal boring family that is totally blown out of the water by the series of events in this show.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:36 AM on March 25 [27 favorites]
I watched one episode casually because it sounded interesting. Then I watched the other three episodes because I couldn't stop watching. When they finished at 2:30 am, I seriously considered just starting over and watching it straight through again.
It is brilliant. Brilliantly written, brilliantly acted, brilliantly shot. Every hour-long episode is ONE SHOT. It's going to have Emmy and BAFTA awards coming out it's arse.
It is squarely about mental health and boys. That is the entire four hour focus. Anyone who doesn't think the mental health of boys and teens is being red-pilled from online content is mistaken and needs to go look at Andrew Tates subscriber and follower counts and maybe spend some time time listening to Joe Rogan, America's most listened to podcaster until last month.
I think one of the things the show does best is illustrate how insidious this kind of indoctrination is, but also how normal and lovable your son is while he holding these thoughts and his head and saying these things when you're not around still is.
This family could literally be any family, the most normal boring family that is totally blown out of the water by the series of events in this show.
posted by DarlingBri at 8:36 AM on March 25 [27 favorites]
>Most adults have no idea who Andrew Tate is
Wow that is not my experience at all, but I am in very lefty and very feminist circles. The adults know and are aware of the negative influences of misogynist male podcasters including but not limited to Tate, and the male 6th graders I know make fun of him. The running nickname is Tater Tot. Of course their opinions may change a lot over the next few years.
posted by fennario at 8:37 AM on March 25 [6 favorites]
Wow that is not my experience at all, but I am in very lefty and very feminist circles. The adults know and are aware of the negative influences of misogynist male podcasters including but not limited to Tate, and the male 6th graders I know make fun of him. The running nickname is Tater Tot. Of course their opinions may change a lot over the next few years.
posted by fennario at 8:37 AM on March 25 [6 favorites]
>I think one of the things the show does best is illustrate how insidious this kind of indoctrination is, but also how normal and lovable your son is while he holding these thoughts and his head and saying these things when you're not around still is.
Fantastic point.
posted by fennario at 8:39 AM on March 25 [15 favorites]
Fantastic point.
posted by fennario at 8:39 AM on March 25 [15 favorites]
I will say that there were a number of TV shows about serious youth problems when I was growing up, and they did not in fact have the desired effect on the youth.
Posted By Frowner
I think one of the points of the show is that This Is A Problem and It Could Happen To Your Family Now Because Online Everywhere, re: online incel stuff, which is something that needs to ring 5-alarm fires.
posted by lalochezia at 8:39 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
As happy as I am that this show was made (as it's a topic that desperately needs addressing), I have confidence that it doesn't turn to face the mirror fully enough.
While I agree with this analysis, I think it's important when raising awareness to present the facts first in story form and then the analysis (soon!) later, or the whole thing can be bashed as being "woke" and dismissed.
posted by lalochezia at 8:41 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
makes it sound like Kids updated for the modern day
It's nothing like Kids. It's a lot closer to a true-crime podcast like Serial but with brooding BBC-ish prestige TV production.
I think its artistic conceit is that the episodes are filmed in one shot with no cuts, they do it twice and pick the best one; or at least that's what my Mom tells me.
I've seen a few minutes of an early episode; mostly an interrogation scene.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:43 AM on March 25
It's nothing like Kids. It's a lot closer to a true-crime podcast like Serial but with brooding BBC-ish prestige TV production.
I think its artistic conceit is that the episodes are filmed in one shot with no cuts, they do it twice and pick the best one; or at least that's what my Mom tells me.
I've seen a few minutes of an early episode; mostly an interrogation scene.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:43 AM on March 25
I watched it with my 14-year-old daughter over the weekend. She claims to have no idea what 'incel', 'red pill', 80/20 or any of that stuff is. I hope it's true. She thought it was a horribly boring show and while I'm a little disappointed that she didn't 'get' it, I suppose I'm also grateful. I'll just keep doing what I've been doing - watching things like this with her, sharing feminist TikToks and jokes and trying to gradually familiarize her with red flags in men.
I'm a bit ashamed at how intensely relieved I am not to have sons.
posted by kitcat at 8:46 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
I'm a bit ashamed at how intensely relieved I am not to have sons.
posted by kitcat at 8:46 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
I cannot say I am relieved not to have a teenage daughter, because I would have done anything for my daughter to survive. But with as much molten fury as I have myself about the loss of rights I was born with, as much fear as I have about what the future holds for women in this country (look at how quickly things changed for women in Iran), there is part of me that .... I don't know if I could parent a daughter effectively right now. Hats off to those of you who are guiding and supporting them through this. I am just trying to raise a man that can have a healthy, happy life, who is not dangerous to women or to himself, who can adapt to the changing circumstances of the future, and reach as many of his goals as possible. A lot of that is the same for parenting, wherever on the gender spectrum our kids are, but yes, knowing the negative influences of toxic masculinity out there ... the way it is harmful to women and to the men themselves who choose to follow those influences, it's scary.
Being told by more than one teacher that he has an uncommonly developed interest in the wider world around him and builds inclusive community in his classrooms, and being told by more than one mother over the years that he stood up for or defended her daughter in some way ... gives me hope. I lean so much into supporting his friendships with boys whose families I know well enough to know they are leaning in to teaching and role modeling positive masculinity. But yes it is scary.
This show was one of the scariest things I've ever watched. As a parent you want to think "Well I'm not teaching my kid that...", you wanted to blame it, perhaps, on his father role modeling toxic masculinity and misogyny. And then you can't. You are forced to look at the fact that you being a good person and a good role model isn't enough.
posted by fennario at 9:06 AM on March 25 [17 favorites]
Being told by more than one teacher that he has an uncommonly developed interest in the wider world around him and builds inclusive community in his classrooms, and being told by more than one mother over the years that he stood up for or defended her daughter in some way ... gives me hope. I lean so much into supporting his friendships with boys whose families I know well enough to know they are leaning in to teaching and role modeling positive masculinity. But yes it is scary.
This show was one of the scariest things I've ever watched. As a parent you want to think "Well I'm not teaching my kid that...", you wanted to blame it, perhaps, on his father role modeling toxic masculinity and misogyny. And then you can't. You are forced to look at the fact that you being a good person and a good role model isn't enough.
posted by fennario at 9:06 AM on March 25 [17 favorites]
I don't know if I could parent a daughter effectively right now. Hats off to those of you who are guiding and supporting them through this. I am just trying to raise a man that can have a healthy, happy life, who is not dangerous to women or to himself, who can adapt to the changing circumstances of the future, and reach as many of his goals as possible.
Hats off to you. I feel like I'm doing the easier job, raising daughters. Especially as a mother - if I had a son, what's to say he wouldn't end up rejecting my influence outright? Working against the bigger culture feels impossibly hard.
posted by kitcat at 9:13 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Hats off to you. I feel like I'm doing the easier job, raising daughters. Especially as a mother - if I had a son, what's to say he wouldn't end up rejecting my influence outright? Working against the bigger culture feels impossibly hard.
posted by kitcat at 9:13 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Is the whole thing on Netflix or is it given out weekly? I don’t have Netflix but will turn it on if I can watch and cancel but don’t want to sign up and have to wait.
posted by dobbs at 9:43 AM on March 25
posted by dobbs at 9:43 AM on March 25
Dobbs, the whole thing is on Netflix, and you can (and will likely be compelled to) watch it in one extremely thorny, bitter gulp. It is amazing. That kid... well, all the kids. Everybody in it. Everybody in it is phenomenal. The one-shot thing isn't just a circus trick, it's perfect for what the show is saying. The fact that they could do what they did with that show with all those adolescent actors so brilliantly rising to the insanely huge challenge is proof that this age group is not lost and could still make a brilliant future for themselves. But we really really need to step up and stop basically leaving these baby lambs out unprotected all night every night in a world full of wolves.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:52 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
posted by Don Pepino at 9:52 AM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I'm genuinely surprised by all these posters saying their kids never heard terms like "red pill" or "incel". I guess I'm just Too Online but I thought these were ubiquitous by now.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:00 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:00 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
I watched this with my daughters (16 and 14). They were able to identify literally all these tropes and terms, and could point to a dozen specific examples of boys who embodied each one. And we live in the middle of a big city, in districts that went Blue by huge margins.
Also, in response to fennario, I have only daughters and think it's much easier than raising sons would be. I can't imagine how much more attention I'd have to pay in order to keep them away from Tate/Rogan/Peterson/etc.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:02 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
Also, in response to fennario, I have only daughters and think it's much easier than raising sons would be. I can't imagine how much more attention I'd have to pay in order to keep them away from Tate/Rogan/Peterson/etc.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:02 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
Is there any sexual abuse?
I feel like this is kind of difficult to answer but if you mean - is there an adult sexually abusing a minor in this show? The answer is no. And there's also no direct portrayal of sexual abuse whatsoever.
posted by kitcat at 10:04 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
I feel like this is kind of difficult to answer but if you mean - is there an adult sexually abusing a minor in this show? The answer is no. And there's also no direct portrayal of sexual abuse whatsoever.
posted by kitcat at 10:04 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
makes it sound like Kids updated for the modern day
Yeah, naw. It's not like Kids because since Kids there has been a complete social overhaul and childhood now does not resemble childhood before the internet. The point of the last episode, which is about Jaime's family, primarily his parents, and of the two of them, primarily his father, includes a long reminiscence about the father and mother when they were adolescents. From that episode we learn that the laissez faire raising that most kids have successfully worked with/around for most of human history to achieve a mostly functioning and reasonably happy maturity will not work at all, now, for many, many kids, at least not for groups of kids with phones, and this is because society has become malevolent and has allowed tech companies to treat children like an exploitable commodity, with entirely predictable results for the children, the adults they will become, and everyone who encounters the children and the adults they will become.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:07 AM on March 25 [20 favorites]
Yeah, naw. It's not like Kids because since Kids there has been a complete social overhaul and childhood now does not resemble childhood before the internet. The point of the last episode, which is about Jaime's family, primarily his parents, and of the two of them, primarily his father, includes a long reminiscence about the father and mother when they were adolescents. From that episode we learn that the laissez faire raising that most kids have successfully worked with/around for most of human history to achieve a mostly functioning and reasonably happy maturity will not work at all, now, for many, many kids, at least not for groups of kids with phones, and this is because society has become malevolent and has allowed tech companies to treat children like an exploitable commodity, with entirely predictable results for the children, the adults they will become, and everyone who encounters the children and the adults they will become.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:07 AM on March 25 [20 favorites]
Reading this over, there's an aspect of this that I keep coming back to, which is that I literally only know Tate as a slimeball. What exactly is going on that kids are modeling themselves after him? Has anybody watched this guy and can give an ELI5 of his schtick?
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 10:10 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 10:10 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
> Has anybody watched this guy and can give an ELI5 of his schtick?
He's a teen movie jock, he boasts about how rich and great he is and all the girls he gets, and rants about how everyone else is dumb and worthless and you should treat them like shit. He speaks with the machine gun patter of a con artist.
posted by lucidium at 10:19 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
He's a teen movie jock, he boasts about how rich and great he is and all the girls he gets, and rants about how everyone else is dumb and worthless and you should treat them like shit. He speaks with the machine gun patter of a con artist.
posted by lucidium at 10:19 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
Has anybody watched this guy and can give an ELI5 of his schtick?
Sure. It's compelling, if you are a young, stupid and absolutely untouched straight boy. He's a pimp without totally saying he's a pimp, with a side order of the kind of masculinity that has this very thin veneer of "take care of your shit and stay focused on your goals" à la Peterson, that's not clearly misogynist. You're* drawn to him because he's a guy who's a champion fighter and who sticks relentlessly to his goals, and only then do you see that those goals are "exploit women, because their stupid little ladybrains lose control when you mistreat them as god intended, and get them to fund your lifestyle." Name brands, a truly cartoonish tough guy exaggeration of masculinity. Nothing that would appeal to anyone with an ounce of sense, but his target market is idiots and losers.
* Not you, nor me, but a solid 1/3 of my daughters' classmates.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:20 AM on March 25 [11 favorites]
Sure. It's compelling, if you are a young, stupid and absolutely untouched straight boy. He's a pimp without totally saying he's a pimp, with a side order of the kind of masculinity that has this very thin veneer of "take care of your shit and stay focused on your goals" à la Peterson, that's not clearly misogynist. You're* drawn to him because he's a guy who's a champion fighter and who sticks relentlessly to his goals, and only then do you see that those goals are "exploit women, because their stupid little ladybrains lose control when you mistreat them as god intended, and get them to fund your lifestyle." Name brands, a truly cartoonish tough guy exaggeration of masculinity. Nothing that would appeal to anyone with an ounce of sense, but his target market is idiots and losers.
* Not you, nor me, but a solid 1/3 of my daughters' classmates.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:20 AM on March 25 [11 favorites]
I literally only know Tate as a slimeball. What exactly is going on that kids are modeling themselves after him?
I haven't watched him. But one thing that's happening is that boys and men are being made to feel increasingly insecure about their looks and their ostensible place within an 'alpha'-based male hierarchy. Anyone who has sons or nephews or access to young men needs to be fighting back against this.
posted by kitcat at 10:21 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
I haven't watched him. But one thing that's happening is that boys and men are being made to feel increasingly insecure about their looks and their ostensible place within an 'alpha'-based male hierarchy. Anyone who has sons or nephews or access to young men needs to be fighting back against this.
posted by kitcat at 10:21 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
Right, got it. Depressing all around, but the most depressing thing is the predictability of it all.
*sigh*
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 10:29 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
*sigh*
posted by Smedly, Butlerian jihadi at 10:29 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
What exactly is going on that kids are modeling themselves after him?
Some of my son's acquaintances got into Tate via his health / body building / exercise focused TikToks along with his boasts of sexual conquests (which, when you are a horny teen, are compelling). And yeah I'd agree with outgrown_hobnail, it is "universally stupid and absolutely untouched straight" WHITE boys (at least with my son's crowd). It is partly why he doesn't hang out with a lot of the white kids (he is white) as they tend to be, in my son's words "pretty stupid and into dumb things." He wouldn't call them losers but he uses that language to describe them. The non-white kids he hangs with, noticeably, all have limits on the use of their phones and other devices which I think plays a role in their behaviour (my son has rigid rules about this as well). They also have parents who are engaged in how they present themselves to the world. All his classmates know the language of Tate (red pill, incel, etc.) and they can all point to people they know from school who would fit into those categories. The child of a family friend was into Tate for a bit but got out of it when Tate said something to the effect that "If you're not having sex for procreation you are gay" - I'm paraphrasing because I can't be arsed to find the actual quote as I only heard it via this kid.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:36 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Some of my son's acquaintances got into Tate via his health / body building / exercise focused TikToks along with his boasts of sexual conquests (which, when you are a horny teen, are compelling). And yeah I'd agree with outgrown_hobnail, it is "universally stupid and absolutely untouched straight" WHITE boys (at least with my son's crowd). It is partly why he doesn't hang out with a lot of the white kids (he is white) as they tend to be, in my son's words "pretty stupid and into dumb things." He wouldn't call them losers but he uses that language to describe them. The non-white kids he hangs with, noticeably, all have limits on the use of their phones and other devices which I think plays a role in their behaviour (my son has rigid rules about this as well). They also have parents who are engaged in how they present themselves to the world. All his classmates know the language of Tate (red pill, incel, etc.) and they can all point to people they know from school who would fit into those categories. The child of a family friend was into Tate for a bit but got out of it when Tate said something to the effect that "If you're not having sex for procreation you are gay" - I'm paraphrasing because I can't be arsed to find the actual quote as I only heard it via this kid.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:36 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Masculinity has been ceded to people like Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan and Donald Trump. This is a problem for which I see no clear solution.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:43 AM on March 25 [10 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 10:43 AM on March 25 [10 favorites]
And yeah I'd agree with outgrown_hobnail, it is "universally stupid and absolutely untouched straight" WHITE boys (at least with my son's crowd).
For the record, both my daughters were very clear that Tate's pretty popular with the black boys, too, but if I understood them correctly, the black boys were likely to see Tate as one among a whole palette of pimp-adjacent shitheads, mostly figures on the margins of hip-hop, whereas the white kids were likelier to have a narrower and all white or white-adjacent pantheon of misogynists. Their school is about 50/50 white/black, but nearly all the white kids are from middle-class families and only about half the black kids are.
All of them, white and black, who are into this ideology are relentlessly, over the top homophobic. I explained "methinks the lady doth protest too much" to them, and they were both like oh yeah that absolutely tracks.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:47 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
For the record, both my daughters were very clear that Tate's pretty popular with the black boys, too, but if I understood them correctly, the black boys were likely to see Tate as one among a whole palette of pimp-adjacent shitheads, mostly figures on the margins of hip-hop, whereas the white kids were likelier to have a narrower and all white or white-adjacent pantheon of misogynists. Their school is about 50/50 white/black, but nearly all the white kids are from middle-class families and only about half the black kids are.
All of them, white and black, who are into this ideology are relentlessly, over the top homophobic. I explained "methinks the lady doth protest too much" to them, and they were both like oh yeah that absolutely tracks.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 10:47 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
I watched the first 10 minutes last night and may not continue (I watched the trailer with my wife who was shook and likely won't watch). But we are the parents of four twenty-something kids (three sons and one daughter) and all are fully aware of these types of perils.
So...to any who are concerned about the future, my youngest son is studying to be a teacher, and is already a coach to both genders of highschoolers. My oldest son is a coach to adolescent girls. These men (and our daughter) are on to this bullshit and nip it quick.
posted by grefo at 10:50 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
So...to any who are concerned about the future, my youngest son is studying to be a teacher, and is already a coach to both genders of highschoolers. My oldest son is a coach to adolescent girls. These men (and our daughter) are on to this bullshit and nip it quick.
posted by grefo at 10:50 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Their school is about 50/50 white/black
Yeah we're in Canada so the numbers are gonna be different for us. It is more like 55% white / 35% "brown" (People from Subcontinent and Middle East mostly) / 10% "New to Canada" Black (Africans and Caribbeans). Definitely Homophobia is a key characteristic.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:52 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Yeah we're in Canada so the numbers are gonna be different for us. It is more like 55% white / 35% "brown" (People from Subcontinent and Middle East mostly) / 10% "New to Canada" Black (Africans and Caribbeans). Definitely Homophobia is a key characteristic.
posted by Ashwagandha at 10:52 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Thank you for letting me know about this series; I have a 10-year-old son and this kind of thing is on my mind constantly. His dad is a good masculine role model, and we talk a lot about how to treat people, and what content he sees online and how video editing can be used to make us feel a certain way (sad music vs. happy music, captions), but at some point he's going to be able to access more and more of this stuff, or his friends will, and it keeps me up at night. The weak link at this age seems to be peers with older siblings who are more online. He told us that one of his friends claimed "reading is for girls" and we all agreed that was untrue and dumb. But it felt like the opening shot in a battle that will last until he's an adult.
posted by castlebravo at 10:54 AM on March 25 [9 favorites]
posted by castlebravo at 10:54 AM on March 25 [9 favorites]
The weirdest thing about Tate is that, physically, he's such a weenie. Just google images of him if you don't know what he looks like. I never understood how this guy became an icon of Masculinity. There are others of that ilk that at least look the part of big, tough traditionally masculine guy.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:57 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:57 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]
I have a daughter, and while she's in her 20s now, when she was ~12ish, we had issues with the people that she was hanging out with online. We had to take her devices away from her more than once, which always improved her behavior, and tell her that she couldn't associate with some of them anymore.
As for Tate, I only know of him from his "x is gay" posts which are roundly mocked.
posted by Spike Glee at 11:00 AM on March 25
As for Tate, I only know of him from his "x is gay" posts which are roundly mocked.
posted by Spike Glee at 11:00 AM on March 25
The weirdest thing about Tate is that, physically, he's such a weenie. Just google images of him if you don't know what he looks like. I never understood how this guy became an icon of Masculinity.
I think lumping this in with "toxic masculinity" is kind of unfortunate in its lack of granularity, actually. While the Tate/redpill ideas are plenty misogynist (the one universal, yay...), the Very Online vision of masculinity doesn't gel with any of the strains of historical gender ideology I'm aware of. Quite a lot of the luxury consumerism/ preening dandy/ Onlyfans pimp stuff seems like it would get classed as "unmanly" in older systems.
Makes one wonder whether you could send one strain in to cancel out the other, somehow, and leave a blank slate behind.
posted by Bardolph at 11:12 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
I think lumping this in with "toxic masculinity" is kind of unfortunate in its lack of granularity, actually. While the Tate/redpill ideas are plenty misogynist (the one universal, yay...), the Very Online vision of masculinity doesn't gel with any of the strains of historical gender ideology I'm aware of. Quite a lot of the luxury consumerism/ preening dandy/ Onlyfans pimp stuff seems like it would get classed as "unmanly" in older systems.
Makes one wonder whether you could send one strain in to cancel out the other, somehow, and leave a blank slate behind.
posted by Bardolph at 11:12 AM on March 25 [1 favorite]
The weirdest thing about Tate is that, physically, he's such a weenie. Just google images of him if you don't know what he looks like. I never understood how this guy became an icon of Masculinity. There are others of that ilk that at least look the part of big, tough traditionally masculine guy.
I imagine that kind of helps, ie his physique doesn't look completely unachievable to scrawny boys, whereas aspiring to be Jack Reacher is just obviously silly.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:14 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
I imagine that kind of helps, ie his physique doesn't look completely unachievable to scrawny boys, whereas aspiring to be Jack Reacher is just obviously silly.
posted by BungaDunga at 11:14 AM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Masculinity has been ceded to people like Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan and Donald Trump. This is a problem for which I see no clear solution.
Oh, I don't know. All the boys I know in that age range take every opportunity available to make fun of Tate (and Peterson). I think ridicularizing them is the absolute best solution, and it isn't really hard because they're ridiculous.
I mean: Andrew Tate warned people to beware his ‘Shadow Fist’ and got humiliated into next year – 17 thumping comebacks
[so be forewarned, if you dare criticize Andrew Tate, you must beware his shadow fist]
posted by chavenet at 11:24 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Oh, I don't know. All the boys I know in that age range take every opportunity available to make fun of Tate (and Peterson). I think ridicularizing them is the absolute best solution, and it isn't really hard because they're ridiculous.
I mean: Andrew Tate warned people to beware his ‘Shadow Fist’ and got humiliated into next year – 17 thumping comebacks
[so be forewarned, if you dare criticize Andrew Tate, you must beware his shadow fist]
posted by chavenet at 11:24 AM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Nothing that would appeal to anyone with an ounce of sense, but his target market is idiots and losers
I don't love this take because a) people need to call these boys in, not insult them (although that's definitely not the job of teenage girls) and b) it's missing the fact that work is being done to make young boys believe that they themselves are idiots and losers who have no choice but to listen to Tate and his ilk or else be left behind.
posted by kitcat at 11:31 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
I don't love this take because a) people need to call these boys in, not insult them (although that's definitely not the job of teenage girls) and b) it's missing the fact that work is being done to make young boys believe that they themselves are idiots and losers who have no choice but to listen to Tate and his ilk or else be left behind.
posted by kitcat at 11:31 AM on March 25 [12 favorites]
I remembered that I came across this really excellent video campaign fighting these toxic online influences a few months ago by a Canadian org called White Ribbon and wanted to drop a link here: My Friend Max Hate
posted by kitcat at 11:32 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
posted by kitcat at 11:32 AM on March 25 [5 favorites]
... but nothing good happens on the internet for kids after 10:00.
It is ALWAYS after 10 PM somewhere in the world, no matter what time it is where the kids are.
It feels to me like half the kids are getting out of phase sleep disorder around when they hit junior high but maybe that's just the kids I know. This makes for an interesting problem when you like to sleep at night to get up for work in the morning and your fourteen-year-old is going to be wide awake until 3 AM.
The weirdest thing about Tate is that, physically, he's such a weenie. Just google images of him if you don't know what he looks like. I never understood how this guy became an icon of Masculinity.
By the time a guy turns to Tate or becomes an incel or a Nazi he has already figured out that he himself is a failure. This is what guys do after they fail - they find a community of other guys who feel angry and hopeless and wallow in power fantasies with them. Some of them have decided they are failures in life by the time they are ten, others wait until they realise they will never earn enough to feel financially confident. So the cohort is of weak men, identifying with other weak men. Tate is very clearly a highly flawed weak man. Naturally he appeals to guys who know that description fits them. He's an extremely successful highly flawed weak man, and that's what they aspire to be.
Tate got most of his money by selling crypto to guys that admired him because he practices sex trafficking, and who trusted him because he said the things that flattered them. His actual target victims were the male idiots, dumb enough to admire a his business plan. I don't know how many women he actually sex trafficked, but I know thousands of guys sent him money for his crypto scams.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:51 AM on March 25 [10 favorites]
It is ALWAYS after 10 PM somewhere in the world, no matter what time it is where the kids are.
It feels to me like half the kids are getting out of phase sleep disorder around when they hit junior high but maybe that's just the kids I know. This makes for an interesting problem when you like to sleep at night to get up for work in the morning and your fourteen-year-old is going to be wide awake until 3 AM.
The weirdest thing about Tate is that, physically, he's such a weenie. Just google images of him if you don't know what he looks like. I never understood how this guy became an icon of Masculinity.
By the time a guy turns to Tate or becomes an incel or a Nazi he has already figured out that he himself is a failure. This is what guys do after they fail - they find a community of other guys who feel angry and hopeless and wallow in power fantasies with them. Some of them have decided they are failures in life by the time they are ten, others wait until they realise they will never earn enough to feel financially confident. So the cohort is of weak men, identifying with other weak men. Tate is very clearly a highly flawed weak man. Naturally he appeals to guys who know that description fits them. He's an extremely successful highly flawed weak man, and that's what they aspire to be.
Tate got most of his money by selling crypto to guys that admired him because he practices sex trafficking, and who trusted him because he said the things that flattered them. His actual target victims were the male idiots, dumb enough to admire a his business plan. I don't know how many women he actually sex trafficked, but I know thousands of guys sent him money for his crypto scams.
posted by Jane the Brown at 11:51 AM on March 25 [10 favorites]
The weirdest thing about Tate is that, physically, he's such a weenie.
This seems to be endemic with top fascists. They’re either bloated sacks, like Trump or Mussolini, or wretches, like Hitler or Tate. I’m not for one second saying that beauty reflects inner goodness or some damn thing—I’ve never believed that. But I think that this kind of fascism really catches on with men who can believe shit hard enough to phase themselves into a different reality. If Andrew Tate had had a chin, he’d still be an asshole, but possibly he’d just be a local jerk who didn’t have the motivation to take it nationwide.
When I watched Adolescence, I had all the huge emotions, but one thing particularly confused me. How could Jamie have been convinced he was ugly? He was just a cute little kid! Then it hit me: I long ago stopped looking at teenagers like they look at themselves, like their current appearance defines their entire lives. The internet preyed on him just because he looked young in a totally normal way. He felt like he needed to see Chad in the mirror, that he never would, and that gave him a grievance that meant everything.
(The Doylist explanation is of course that the script was written and Owen Cooper was the best actor, so his looks were incidental.)
posted by Countess Elena at 11:56 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
This seems to be endemic with top fascists. They’re either bloated sacks, like Trump or Mussolini, or wretches, like Hitler or Tate. I’m not for one second saying that beauty reflects inner goodness or some damn thing—I’ve never believed that. But I think that this kind of fascism really catches on with men who can believe shit hard enough to phase themselves into a different reality. If Andrew Tate had had a chin, he’d still be an asshole, but possibly he’d just be a local jerk who didn’t have the motivation to take it nationwide.
When I watched Adolescence, I had all the huge emotions, but one thing particularly confused me. How could Jamie have been convinced he was ugly? He was just a cute little kid! Then it hit me: I long ago stopped looking at teenagers like they look at themselves, like their current appearance defines their entire lives. The internet preyed on him just because he looked young in a totally normal way. He felt like he needed to see Chad in the mirror, that he never would, and that gave him a grievance that meant everything.
(The Doylist explanation is of course that the script was written and Owen Cooper was the best actor, so his looks were incidental.)
posted by Countess Elena at 11:56 AM on March 25 [4 favorites]
How could Jamie have been convinced he was ugly? He was just a cute little kid! Then it hit me: I long ago stopped looking at teenagers like they look at themselves, like their current appearance defines their entire lives.
That part really got me too. But there's a big difference between my teenage years and now. When I was a kid in the 80s/90s, there was no business of making boys feel insecure to turn them into consumers of supplements and podcasts and crypto. We only did that to girls to make them buy teen magazines and beauty products.
posted by kitcat at 12:11 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
That part really got me too. But there's a big difference between my teenage years and now. When I was a kid in the 80s/90s, there was no business of making boys feel insecure to turn them into consumers of supplements and podcasts and crypto. We only did that to girls to make them buy teen magazines and beauty products.
posted by kitcat at 12:11 PM on March 25 [6 favorites]
As parent of a PDAer boy, I have a more radical take on this than most people:
Adults have created the world we live in by creating and perpetuating systems of power, dominance, and inequality.
And as usual, adults think the problem they have created can be cured with a good dose of more adultism.
So today we're still coddling Big Tech oligarchs and policing children, instead of the other way around.
posted by splitpeasoup at 12:16 PM on March 25 [15 favorites]
Adults have created the world we live in by creating and perpetuating systems of power, dominance, and inequality.
And as usual, adults think the problem they have created can be cured with a good dose of more adultism.
So today we're still coddling Big Tech oligarchs and policing children, instead of the other way around.
posted by splitpeasoup at 12:16 PM on March 25 [15 favorites]
It's not that Tate etc are for failures, they're for guys who have bought in and/or been brainwashed into thinking that not being rich, or being short, or not finding it easy to have giant muscles make you a failure. They also believe in zero sum exchanges - and they believe that success is entirely determined by the approval of the worst kind of men, many of whom are themselves scam artists.
It's not about being a failure; it's about being conned into feeling like a failure, with a big helping of "being a success means that no one ever tells you no or criticizes you in any way, so if anyone tells you no, you're a loser".
I think that the quantifying nature of the internet is a big part of this - a structural factor that is only ideological in a deep way. Like, we've all been told that we ought to care if a guy is 6 feet tall, and that it's vaguely embarrassing if he's only 5'11". What kind of bullshit is that? I grant you that height bias isn't new, but the pervasive six foot discourse backed with the constant availability of sites where people can be sorted (or excluded) by height really feeds this whole thing. Before social media and the pervasiveness of dating sites, sure, a tall guy would get undeserved approval and a short guy would be treated badly - but being tall in a general sense was good enough. Or even being taller than your date*.
Now we've got this discourse put forward by grifters of all genders about how you have to be quantifiably the stupidest, worst kind of man in order to get a date or feel okay about yourself - you have to be six feet tall, built like a cartoon, have a bunch of stupid boring expensive cars, wear ugly tight clothes (see Tate), have a boring haircut, drink expensive boring booze, make some nonsense sum of money, etc. Not only should you avoid being an individual with any interesting features, but you also know to the millimeter how much taller, richer and more boring you need to be to "succeed".
And then repeat all that six foot discourse only for weight and muscles and cheekbones and hairline and income and cars etc etc etc.
This is absolutely terrible for anyone, but especially terrible for kids who are still trying to figure out how they ought to be in the world. Metrics have power. Lists have power. The quantified self is a nightmare.
*I, from a family of short men, attracted to short men, think this is all utter toxic bullshit anyway. Additionally, every time I, an AFAB person, see some awful woman or AFAB person making noises about how the man has to pay for everything, don't date him if he's short, he should bring you costly gifts, etc (as if he's buying you!) I get so angry I feel like my head will come off.
posted by Frowner at 12:16 PM on March 25 [16 favorites]
It's not about being a failure; it's about being conned into feeling like a failure, with a big helping of "being a success means that no one ever tells you no or criticizes you in any way, so if anyone tells you no, you're a loser".
I think that the quantifying nature of the internet is a big part of this - a structural factor that is only ideological in a deep way. Like, we've all been told that we ought to care if a guy is 6 feet tall, and that it's vaguely embarrassing if he's only 5'11". What kind of bullshit is that? I grant you that height bias isn't new, but the pervasive six foot discourse backed with the constant availability of sites where people can be sorted (or excluded) by height really feeds this whole thing. Before social media and the pervasiveness of dating sites, sure, a tall guy would get undeserved approval and a short guy would be treated badly - but being tall in a general sense was good enough. Or even being taller than your date*.
Now we've got this discourse put forward by grifters of all genders about how you have to be quantifiably the stupidest, worst kind of man in order to get a date or feel okay about yourself - you have to be six feet tall, built like a cartoon, have a bunch of stupid boring expensive cars, wear ugly tight clothes (see Tate), have a boring haircut, drink expensive boring booze, make some nonsense sum of money, etc. Not only should you avoid being an individual with any interesting features, but you also know to the millimeter how much taller, richer and more boring you need to be to "succeed".
And then repeat all that six foot discourse only for weight and muscles and cheekbones and hairline and income and cars etc etc etc.
This is absolutely terrible for anyone, but especially terrible for kids who are still trying to figure out how they ought to be in the world. Metrics have power. Lists have power. The quantified self is a nightmare.
*I, from a family of short men, attracted to short men, think this is all utter toxic bullshit anyway. Additionally, every time I, an AFAB person, see some awful woman or AFAB person making noises about how the man has to pay for everything, don't date him if he's short, he should bring you costly gifts, etc (as if he's buying you!) I get so angry I feel like my head will come off.
posted by Frowner at 12:16 PM on March 25 [16 favorites]
I watched the show this weekend and its beautifully made, written, and acted. I browsed Reddit after watching it to try to get a sense of how realistic some of the school scenes were/how endemic misogyny is amongst a schoolage cohort, and the general consensus was it's definitely present. This is, of course, a somewhat biased sample, but it seems to track with other UK reporting. Without wanting to hand teachers another problem to solve, facing meaningful consequences for misogyny in the classroom, or towards female teachers/staff would seem a good place to start? Some comments pointed that not all parents felt comments from their sons were worthy of discipline though.
Perhaps especially naively, I thought we agreed as a society that misogyny is a bad thing. Evidently this is not the case, and this is the deeper problem.
posted by eyeofthetiger at 12:22 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Perhaps especially naively, I thought we agreed as a society that misogyny is a bad thing. Evidently this is not the case, and this is the deeper problem.
posted by eyeofthetiger at 12:22 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
I haven't watched it yet but of course this is the nightmare of every parent.
I will say that having spent 6 years working to provide martial arts mostly for kids and teens, and hiring teens, mostly boys despite good efforts, and having boys, and working on a university campus now...I do not feel heartbroken or without hope at all about young men.
For sure this is happening and it's real -- ffs, 11 people died here in an incel attack -- but there is so much more going on, I promise everyone who maybe isn't as embedded in youth today.
I've talked before about how my older son went down the Johnny Depp support vlog rabbit hole. It really bothered me at the time, and I got freaked out. But here we are on the other side and the conversations we had were really, really good. My kid's actions and relationships since have reflected more the values I hope he'll hold.
For internet stuff...I've probably erred on the side of too much access to things, but I wanted my kids to have a long lead up on gaming culture and internet shit while they were still more under my influence and roof. My position has always been both to be aware of what they're into (my oldest is 19, so this aspect is fading) and talk about it, but also to make other stuff more attractive or at times, mandatory.
I think it's really important for teens to have real-world responsibilities or domains they can sink their teeth into and places they can build real connections apart from their parents. Preferably multiple ones, preferably with people to mentor them and call them on their bullshit for real, but in a respectful way. But definitely to reach beyond the family and also to be able to have real positive (or sometimes negative; that's what learning is.) I think feeling helpless makes them especially vulnerable to this kind of thing. Maybe this is addressed in the show.
I think one of the things the show does best is illustrate how insidious this kind of indoctrination is, but also how normal and lovable your son is while he holding these thoughts and his head and saying these things when you're not around still is.
It's super normal for adolescents to not share all those things with their parents. I'm really glad a show is addressing this, but I think I will time my watching for when I'm not too stressed out because one thing my particular kids don't need is me getting freaked out.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:23 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
I will say that having spent 6 years working to provide martial arts mostly for kids and teens, and hiring teens, mostly boys despite good efforts, and having boys, and working on a university campus now...I do not feel heartbroken or without hope at all about young men.
For sure this is happening and it's real -- ffs, 11 people died here in an incel attack -- but there is so much more going on, I promise everyone who maybe isn't as embedded in youth today.
I've talked before about how my older son went down the Johnny Depp support vlog rabbit hole. It really bothered me at the time, and I got freaked out. But here we are on the other side and the conversations we had were really, really good. My kid's actions and relationships since have reflected more the values I hope he'll hold.
For internet stuff...I've probably erred on the side of too much access to things, but I wanted my kids to have a long lead up on gaming culture and internet shit while they were still more under my influence and roof. My position has always been both to be aware of what they're into (my oldest is 19, so this aspect is fading) and talk about it, but also to make other stuff more attractive or at times, mandatory.
I think it's really important for teens to have real-world responsibilities or domains they can sink their teeth into and places they can build real connections apart from their parents. Preferably multiple ones, preferably with people to mentor them and call them on their bullshit for real, but in a respectful way. But definitely to reach beyond the family and also to be able to have real positive (or sometimes negative; that's what learning is.) I think feeling helpless makes them especially vulnerable to this kind of thing. Maybe this is addressed in the show.
I think one of the things the show does best is illustrate how insidious this kind of indoctrination is, but also how normal and lovable your son is while he holding these thoughts and his head and saying these things when you're not around still is.
It's super normal for adolescents to not share all those things with their parents. I'm really glad a show is addressing this, but I think I will time my watching for when I'm not too stressed out because one thing my particular kids don't need is me getting freaked out.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:23 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
How could Jamie have been convinced he was ugly? He was just a cute little kid! Then it hit me: I long ago stopped looking at teenagers like they look at themselves, like their current appearance defines their entire lives.
This is how I learned I needed to pay more attention and engage with this stuff before it got out of control - my cute son at 11 asked me to buy him "jaw strengthening chewing gum" to improve his jawline. At 11...
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:27 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
This is how I learned I needed to pay more attention and engage with this stuff before it got out of control - my cute son at 11 asked me to buy him "jaw strengthening chewing gum" to improve his jawline. At 11...
posted by Ashwagandha at 12:27 PM on March 25 [8 favorites]
facing meaningful consequences for misogyny in the classroom
I am super pro-public education and pro-education but I have to admit that in general I think my kids' time in public school has created a lot of challenges about misogyny and also masculinity. Even in my minority-caucasian, darn inclusive neighbourhood, my kids came home and still come home with the worst stuff, often via their teachers. I'll stop there because I could really rant about that.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:27 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
I am super pro-public education and pro-education but I have to admit that in general I think my kids' time in public school has created a lot of challenges about misogyny and also masculinity. Even in my minority-caucasian, darn inclusive neighbourhood, my kids came home and still come home with the worst stuff, often via their teachers. I'll stop there because I could really rant about that.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:27 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
If Andrew Tate had had a chin, he’d still be an asshole, but possibly he’d just be a local jerk
Sort of like terrible spelling in scam emails?
posted by clew at 1:19 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Sort of like terrible spelling in scam emails?
posted by clew at 1:19 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
my kids ... come home with the worst stuff, often via their teachers
What the what! Can you elaborate?
posted by CynicalKnight at 1:30 PM on March 25
What the what! Can you elaborate?
posted by CynicalKnight at 1:30 PM on March 25
When I was a kid in the 80s/90s, there was no business of making boys feel insecure to turn them into consumers of supplements and podcasts and crypto.
What? Muscle cars, GNC, protein shakes, the prom king, the popular rich dude in every teen movie? Rap and hard rock music from the 1990s? Trust me, it existed then too.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:32 PM on March 25 [5 favorites]
What? Muscle cars, GNC, protein shakes, the prom king, the popular rich dude in every teen movie? Rap and hard rock music from the 1990s? Trust me, it existed then too.
posted by The_Vegetables at 1:32 PM on March 25 [5 favorites]
This is how I learned I needed to pay more attention and engage with this stuff before it got out of control - my cute son at 11 asked me to buy him "jaw strengthening chewing gum" to improve his jawline. At 11...
Growth hormone would actually do the trick, and I think it's only a matter of time until a black market for HGH emerges which will cater to desires like your son's, and which individual parents will not find out about until it's too late.
For all I know it may already exist — remember the fad for zinc supplements that swept fraternities some years back? Last I heard it did actually add an in inch or two in height to the boys who took it.
There are many many problems associated with taking human growth hormone, not the least of which is that it tends to cause the pituitary to shut down and then you have to take it for the rest of your life.
posted by jamjam at 1:43 PM on March 25
Growth hormone would actually do the trick, and I think it's only a matter of time until a black market for HGH emerges which will cater to desires like your son's, and which individual parents will not find out about until it's too late.
For all I know it may already exist — remember the fad for zinc supplements that swept fraternities some years back? Last I heard it did actually add an in inch or two in height to the boys who took it.
There are many many problems associated with taking human growth hormone, not the least of which is that it tends to cause the pituitary to shut down and then you have to take it for the rest of your life.
posted by jamjam at 1:43 PM on March 25
This is a problem for which I see no clear solution.
It's not 100% hopeless- there are counter examples: Hasan Abi and Luke Thomas off the top of my head- where masculinity, intellect and empathy aren't at odds with each other, but it is true, we are currently living through a moment where reactionary grifters are ascendant.
Honestly, I don't think that it's so much "masculinity" per se, but more directness/ decisiveness that's what really appealing. Hopefully kids can get more exposure to folks, like say Bill Burr, who are coded "masculine" but definitely have thoughtfulness and self-examination as an important part of their persona. Each of these counter examples that I mentioned aren't perfect, but I feel like every bit of empathy is a little step in the right direction.
posted by ishmael at 2:00 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
It's not 100% hopeless- there are counter examples: Hasan Abi and Luke Thomas off the top of my head- where masculinity, intellect and empathy aren't at odds with each other, but it is true, we are currently living through a moment where reactionary grifters are ascendant.
Honestly, I don't think that it's so much "masculinity" per se, but more directness/ decisiveness that's what really appealing. Hopefully kids can get more exposure to folks, like say Bill Burr, who are coded "masculine" but definitely have thoughtfulness and self-examination as an important part of their persona. Each of these counter examples that I mentioned aren't perfect, but I feel like every bit of empathy is a little step in the right direction.
posted by ishmael at 2:00 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
> Masculinity has been ceded to people like Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan and Donald Trump. This is a problem for which I see no clear solution.
I've been telling my son stories about his great-grandfather who was a farmer and proto-hardware hacker. He could fix stuff and worked with a blacksmith to design and build his own badass tractor-forklift. He used to let me watch him weld metal objects together (he made me wear his extra welder's helmet). I saw him whack his thumb with a hammer, shrug, and just keep on hammering. I saw him pull an inch-long bloody splinter out of his hand and toss it aside like it was nothing. My dad tells me that when Grandpa went to the dentist and they were going to drill he'd tell them he didn't need anesthetic. The guy was tough as nails. He was solid. At the same time he was soft-spoken and gentle. He didn't have to put somebody else down to feel good about himself. I have memories of him cradling my younger sisters and all my cousins when they were infants. We all have fond memories of him taking breaks from farmwork to take us out for snacks. He was always unfailingly respectful to my grandmother. He was my dad's hero just like my dad is mine. We need more men like him in this world. Those of us who had men like that in our lives need to tell young men about them.
posted by technodelic at 2:01 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
I've been telling my son stories about his great-grandfather who was a farmer and proto-hardware hacker. He could fix stuff and worked with a blacksmith to design and build his own badass tractor-forklift. He used to let me watch him weld metal objects together (he made me wear his extra welder's helmet). I saw him whack his thumb with a hammer, shrug, and just keep on hammering. I saw him pull an inch-long bloody splinter out of his hand and toss it aside like it was nothing. My dad tells me that when Grandpa went to the dentist and they were going to drill he'd tell them he didn't need anesthetic. The guy was tough as nails. He was solid. At the same time he was soft-spoken and gentle. He didn't have to put somebody else down to feel good about himself. I have memories of him cradling my younger sisters and all my cousins when they were infants. We all have fond memories of him taking breaks from farmwork to take us out for snacks. He was always unfailingly respectful to my grandmother. He was my dad's hero just like my dad is mine. We need more men like him in this world. Those of us who had men like that in our lives need to tell young men about them.
posted by technodelic at 2:01 PM on March 25 [7 favorites]
I've looked at some Andrew Tate videos out of morbid curiosity and what seems to spew forth is the opposite of masculinity. It is twitchy, almost reflexive fear. To me, classic masculinity was measured, and calm. We are in bizarre-o world.
posted by hankmajor at 2:50 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
posted by hankmajor at 2:50 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
> It's compelling, if you are a young, stupid [...] boy
I think this is a potentially dangerous take because (a) most parents don't think their kids are stupid, and (b) it's not just "stupid" kids that are taken in by this stuff. The show touches on this; the boy is shown to be a bright student. Parents should not think they don't need to be concerned about this because they think their kids aren't stupid. Less stupid kids can dissemble better, too.
posted by merlynkline at 3:50 PM on March 25 [3 favorites]
I think this is a potentially dangerous take because (a) most parents don't think their kids are stupid, and (b) it's not just "stupid" kids that are taken in by this stuff. The show touches on this; the boy is shown to be a bright student. Parents should not think they don't need to be concerned about this because they think their kids aren't stupid. Less stupid kids can dissemble better, too.
posted by merlynkline at 3:50 PM on March 25 [3 favorites]
Without wanting to hand teachers another problem to solve, facing meaningful consequences for misogyny in the classroom, or towards female teachers/staff would seem a good place to start? Some comments pointed that not all parents felt comments from their sons were worthy of discipline though.
Leaving aside how much work teachers already have thrust upon them, I don't know why this childrearing responsibility would not belong to parents. In this particular show we are talking about a 13 year old boy. There is no reason for a 13 year old to have a device -- any device -- that does not have parental controls on it. The idea that children need their parents permission to have social media accounts, and that parents have the passwords to those accounts and check them, has been around for ages.
We can certainly have a discussion about whether it's teachers or parents who should be instilling basic moral values like "women are not property or sexual objects and are deserving of the same respect as every other human on this planet and by the way don't stab them, hit them or rape them" but one of the things that the show made clear is that despite how upstanding and well meaning the literally dozens of adults involved in this perfectly normal child's life were, they all lacked any understanding of what was out there for him to engage with, let alone the existence and power of the content pipeline shoveling shit into his brain.
Algorithms are more responsive than parents and probably spending more time with their kids than they are. As soon as a kid with a bunch of Minecraft watching history googles "big titties", YouTube is going to start serving Andrew Tate and Sneako and Fresh and Fit. So unless you are successful in actively having prophylactic conversations about toxic masculinity with your 13 year old, I would suggest parental monitoring of the content fire hose is the best defense against having your child radicalized.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:05 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Leaving aside how much work teachers already have thrust upon them, I don't know why this childrearing responsibility would not belong to parents. In this particular show we are talking about a 13 year old boy. There is no reason for a 13 year old to have a device -- any device -- that does not have parental controls on it. The idea that children need their parents permission to have social media accounts, and that parents have the passwords to those accounts and check them, has been around for ages.
We can certainly have a discussion about whether it's teachers or parents who should be instilling basic moral values like "women are not property or sexual objects and are deserving of the same respect as every other human on this planet and by the way don't stab them, hit them or rape them" but one of the things that the show made clear is that despite how upstanding and well meaning the literally dozens of adults involved in this perfectly normal child's life were, they all lacked any understanding of what was out there for him to engage with, let alone the existence and power of the content pipeline shoveling shit into his brain.
Algorithms are more responsive than parents and probably spending more time with their kids than they are. As soon as a kid with a bunch of Minecraft watching history googles "big titties", YouTube is going to start serving Andrew Tate and Sneako and Fresh and Fit. So unless you are successful in actively having prophylactic conversations about toxic masculinity with your 13 year old, I would suggest parental monitoring of the content fire hose is the best defense against having your child radicalized.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:05 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
Masculinity has been ceded to people like Andrew Tate, Joe Rogan and Donald Trump. This is a problem for which I see no clear solution.
See the previous threads on the man-o-sphere for constructive alternatives (and not the prior mythopoetic men's movement, more in the Theorizing Masculinities vein).
More directly, there's the still-somehow-vaguely-alternative* vibe modeled by channels like Internet Today.
Or, though more polarizing, Hasan Piker.
* as in skater/grunge
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:25 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
See the previous threads on the man-o-sphere for constructive alternatives (and not the prior mythopoetic men's movement, more in the Theorizing Masculinities vein).
More directly, there's the still-somehow-vaguely-alternative* vibe modeled by channels like Internet Today.
Or, though more polarizing, Hasan Piker.
* as in skater/grunge
posted by snuffleupagus at 4:25 PM on March 25 [2 favorites]
This seems to be endemic with top fascists. They’re either bloated sacks, like Trump or Mussolini, or wretches, like Hitler or Tate. I’m not for one second saying that beauty reflects inner goodness or some damn thing—I’ve never believed that. But I think that this kind of fascism really catches on with men who can believe shit hard enough to phase themselves into a different reality. If Andrew Tate had had a chin, he’d still be an asshole, but possibly he’d just be a local jerk who didn’t have the motivation to take it nationwide.
Nah, there are plenty of counterexamples of such men who would also be considered conventionally attractive by pre-2010 standards. Pete Hegseth, for example.
posted by eviemath at 4:26 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Nah, there are plenty of counterexamples of such men who would also be considered conventionally attractive by pre-2010 standards. Pete Hegseth, for example.
posted by eviemath at 4:26 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Okay, fine, "boys with low Wisdom scores".
And I don't have any parental controls on my kids' devices because my kids are clever and will more or less immediately figure out how to circumvent them, so we just talk about things. You do you, but IMHO parental controls just generate kids who view parents as thumbs to be got out from under and serve as a poor substitute for actually knowing your kids. Both kids were inoculated against religion and other forms of magical thinking real early through basic media literacy discussions, so they're both super skeptical about anything anyone tells them on the internet.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:28 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
And I don't have any parental controls on my kids' devices because my kids are clever and will more or less immediately figure out how to circumvent them, so we just talk about things. You do you, but IMHO parental controls just generate kids who view parents as thumbs to be got out from under and serve as a poor substitute for actually knowing your kids. Both kids were inoculated against religion and other forms of magical thinking real early through basic media literacy discussions, so they're both super skeptical about anything anyone tells them on the internet.
posted by outgrown_hobnail at 4:28 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Without wanting to hand teachers another problem to solve, facing meaningful consequences for misogyny in the classroom, or towards female teachers/staff would seem a good place to start? Some comments pointed that not all parents felt comments from their sons were worthy of discipline though.
Speaking as a high school teacher, I am not (largely) in charge of consequences. I do not (largely) have authority for this--that is handled by administrators. In my experience, there's no shortage of (at least tolerance for) misogyny there. Particularly in an environment where schools are ranked by their state department of education based on giving out as few serious consequences to students as possible, there's not much gumption to take on these sort of social issues.
posted by thegears at 5:36 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
Speaking as a high school teacher, I am not (largely) in charge of consequences. I do not (largely) have authority for this--that is handled by administrators. In my experience, there's no shortage of (at least tolerance for) misogyny there. Particularly in an environment where schools are ranked by their state department of education based on giving out as few serious consequences to students as possible, there's not much gumption to take on these sort of social issues.
posted by thegears at 5:36 PM on March 25 [1 favorite]
« Older inefficient, not to say absurd | Rocky to host Olympics rowing as expert promises... Newer »
posted by chavenet at 7:22 AM on March 25 [7 favorites]