Yay! Congratulations to everyone on the handover!
posted by NotLost at 5:37 AM on December 20 [9 favorites]

These 9 cent foreign transaction fees are killing us.
posted by Lemkin at 5:48 AM on December 20

Woohoo! MeFi officially a non-profit! Congrats, and thank you to all those who have worked so hard over the past few years!
posted by umber vowel at 5:49 AM on December 20 [3 favorites]

"MetaFilter LLC has been formally donated to MetaFilter Community Foundation" - that's great news - I'm very glad to see progress here. Congratulations!

Brandon, in the last site update thread, after we discovered that account wipes don't actually remove 'wiped' comments from the database, which means that they could be made public in future (which isn't, I think, what most users expect), I asked whether every IP address that a comment is posted from is likewise kept in the database for perpetuity, even after a so-called account wipe (which has obvious privacy implications). Do you have an update on this, please?
posted by siskin at 5:51 AM on December 20 [2 favorites]

Ooh, lots of progress! Nice.
posted by Bugbread at 6:16 AM on December 20

Yes, this update shows good progress on multiple fronts!
posted by NotLost at 6:19 AM on December 20

Whoa, congrats everyone!

I don't think we ever got a chance to see bylaws, etc., and it might have been prudent to get some of that hammered out with community input before handing over the bank account, but I guess pressure was building to just get this done with, and that seems fine.

Thanks for shepherding this, founding Foundation board! (Don't go stripping the site for parts, pls.)
posted by nobody at 6:34 AM on December 20 [6 favorites]

This is a solid update and congratulations everyone.
posted by warriorqueen at 6:36 AM on December 20 [7 favorites]

Interesting to see the demo. I'm relieved to not see downvotes, that would drive me straight outta there, we don't need more Reddit like features.
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:46 AM on December 20

MetaFilter LLC has been formally donated to MetaFilter Community Foundation

So, theoretically, resignations could be demanded now, if persons were inclined to demand such?
posted by snofoam at 6:55 AM on December 20 [4 favorites]

MetaFilter LLC has been formally donated to MetaFilter Community Foundation

Yay! A treat!

Seriously, I’m glad to see it.
posted by nat at 7:01 AM on December 20 [1 favorite]

I suppose this is as eventful a moment in MeFi history as the re-opening of registrations.

I’m glad I was here to see it. And I hope I will be able to reflect on it for as long.
posted by Lemkin at 7:11 AM on December 20 [1 favorite]

I'm delighted by the updates and all the progress made -- I know getting here was not easy. A great way to wrap up the year for sure. :)

Thank you!
posted by mochapickle at 7:18 AM on December 20 [2 favorites]

can the financial updates also include the current cash balance? i asked for that and got it a few months back but it doesn't seem to have made it into the recurring reports.
posted by mullacc at 7:31 AM on December 20 [6 favorites]

So, theoretically, resignations could be demanded now, if persons were inclined to demand such?

Speaking for myself here:

Management, you can feel free to cut me loose right now if you see fit, seriously and politely.

To be clear, I don't want to go, but there's no point in beating around the bush, so if changes need to be made, let's proceed what needs to done. 'Cause while I enjoy the work and like the overall community, the constant calls, demands, or jokes to be let go do get old.

It never encourages or inspires staff members to do better, it just become a crappy part of the job that you have to ignore or navigate around.

But yeah, if changes need to be made, let me know or just lock me out of the backend.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 7:39 AM on December 20 [30 favorites]

So, theoretically, resignations could be demanded now, if persons were inclined to demand such?

We all know nothing on that end will change.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 7:41 AM on December 20

Excellent, lots of good news here about the new site and transition.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 7:49 AM on December 20

(•_•) Looks like this community
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■) got owned.
YEAAAAAAHHHHHH–
posted by lucidium at 7:53 AM on December 20 [5 favorites]

Now that the transition has happened, let's immediately reduce our moderation costs so we can have the funds to hire/contract an ED or manager to do the rest of the transition and hopefully get the site back on track. We should do this ASAP while there's still a little money in the bank and coming in. I agree that there's no reason to drag this out. It has to happen and we should do it.
posted by snofoam at 8:09 AM on December 20 [2 favorites]

Some things in this update that sound very good. Thank you.

Frimble is working on a simple moderation log for the current site

Will this be the log users requested or just a compilation of the comments mods already leave across the site?

Can we get an ETA?
posted by trig at 8:13 AM on December 20 [1 favorite]

But yeah, if changes need to be made, let me know or just lock me out of the backend.

I can't speak for the board, but I would hope that even if that happens down the line that it would be handled much better than that. I don't think that's the only outcome from everything that's going on.

To be clear personally I agree with the idea that no one knows what current staff is capable of because it's been a leadership mess for a few years.

It also occurred to me that all the current mods were probably trained by, or trained by someone who was trained by, cortex at a time that cortex was already feeling underwater. I've observed in various environments that if you tell someone on their first week "your job is to hold the water back from this hole in the dam, see, put your finger here" they often won't go looking for a cement patching kit.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:18 AM on December 20 [19 favorites]

It never encourages or inspires staff members to do better, it just become a crappy part of the job that you have to ignore or navigate around.

FWIW, as someone who has repeatedly said I think the site is not in the right hands and that this needs to change sooner rather than later: I haven't been saying that with an intention to harass any of the staff, or make life unpleasant or help burn them out.

I made them because I feel there is a real need for change and accountability for the site to even survive, let alone thrive. And because there doesn't seem to be a manager in charge able or willing to (a) implement changes in effective and timely ways, and (b) hold staff accountable, with consequences, for inadequate performance over time.

I've said these things publicly because MetaTalk is currently the only avenue for even trying to hold staff accountable, whether for individual actions or for long-standing patterns of performance. Because it has been made clear there is no effective internal structure for accountability.

I know it's got to be deeply unpleasant to read as a mod. (And I know that for users who haven't really been following along, it probably feels unwarranted, mean-spirited, and off-putting to read.)

Still: taking this kind of feedback seriously, rather than ignoring or navigating around it, would go a long way towards eliminating my perceived need for it. I would be happy with an outcome where mods' stewardship of this site becomes good enough that it makes sense for the current staffing to continue.

But I think this absolutely requires a setup where there is a manager, or managers, actually ensuring good performance. With consequences if that fails to happen over time. I hope that the nonprofit team is thinking about this requirement, and its urgency, seriously. Recognizing how deep frustration around this is. And that we see discussion of it in the upcoming nonprofit update thread.
posted by trig at 8:33 AM on December 20 [18 favorites]

(by which I mean, recognition and discussion of this as a central issue in the post, by the nonprofit team.)
posted by trig at 8:42 AM on December 20 [4 favorites]

Hurrah! Thank you for this update, and congratulations to everyone who's been working to make this transfer happen.
posted by cupcakeninja at 9:06 AM on December 20

So, theoretically, resignations could be demanded now, if persons were inclined to demand such?

Maybe you could wait a few days and do it on Christmas Eve to really turn the knife.
posted by kbanas at 9:07 AM on December 20 [14 favorites]

Gentle reminder that not everyone celebrates Christmas. Please be more culturally aware when deciding when to twist your knives. Thank you.
posted by phunniemee at 9:15 AM on December 20 [24 favorites]

Great news on the handover! Looking forward to positive change from the Foundation.
posted by Sparky Buttons at 9:29 AM on December 20 [1 favorite]

[Running to window, opening it, putting out head]

"What's to-day, my fine fellow?"
posted by snofoam at 9:35 AM on December 20 [4 favorites]

I guess pressure was building to just get this done with, and that seems fine.

Yep, for various business-and-taxes reasons, trying to wrap up before the end of the year was the goal. And, as the person who was doing legal-and-paperwork (with the help of the SC in the first part of it--my eternal gratitude to them--and then not) since 2022, it was past time. It would be a grace and a kindness to the incoming board to give them a little bit of time to get up to speed.

We're still doing a lot of transferring of the 15-20 accounts on the back end (a job that can range from a few clicks to actually-impossible) that make up the MeFi extended universe after signing paperwork on the 14th. Hoping for no major bumps but last time through this transition took six months and so far it's been less than a week.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 10:05 AM on December 20 [31 favorites]

I'm on the board of a nonprofit that got up and running as a 501(c)(3) in the last year, and another that is in the middle of 501(c)(3) paperwork right now. I can't take on another board role lest my partner stage an intervention, but if the incoming board wants to bounce ideas or questions off me I'm happy to support as I can.
posted by brook horse at 10:33 AM on December 20 [11 favorites]

Congratulations on getting it done. Such a labour of love.
posted by jouke at 11:19 AM on December 20 [1 favorite]

Congratulations to all! ♥
posted by Lynsey at 11:52 AM on December 20

snofoam: So, theoretically, resignations could be demanded now, if persons were inclined to demand such?

trig: I know it's got to be deeply unpleasant to read as a mod. (And I know that for users who haven't really been following along, it probably feels unwarranted, mean-spirited, and off-putting to read.)

phunniemee: Gentle reminder that not everyone celebrates Christmas. Please be more culturally aware when deciding when to twist your knives. Thank you.

This endless hounding of staff and volunteers has to stop. MetaTalk has become too toxic to be useful.
posted by Kattullus at 11:55 AM on December 20 [52 favorites]

I'm glad someone is finally reading my comments with the dire and serious intent they're written in. I don't understand why people always think I'm trying to be funny.
posted by phunniemee at 12:14 PM on December 20 [8 favorites]

You are funny. I’ve laughed at many of your jokes though the years, but the jokes you aim at people in MetaTalk are hurtful and pointed, and it makes me sad to read them.
posted by Kattullus at 12:25 PM on December 20 [29 favorites]

Speaking for myself here
You can speak for me as well.

To be clear personally I agree with the idea that no one knows what current staff is capable of
Yes, I fully agree and I'm looking forward to seeing that (whether from here or from afar).
posted by loup (staff) at 12:26 PM on December 20 [2 favorites]

This is a truly solid update and a lot of hopeful progress. Thank you for that, to everyone involved. It feels apt to let old MeFi go and bring the new one in with the solstice.
posted by donnagirl at 12:34 PM on December 20 [7 favorites]

This endless hounding of staff and volunteers has to stop. MetaTalk has become too toxic to be useful.

That's a valid perspective, but please keep in mind that's not a universal perspective. Many of us started out with that perspective too. Today, I personally find the "all you critics are toxic" approach can itself be pretty negative, ugly, and dismissive. And I think a lot of us have been trying to present our criticism as patiently and reasonably as we can.

Anyway, from my perspective, a lot of the (encouraging!) changes in this update are a direct result of "endless hounding". Staff wasn't making needed changes on their own, and occasional polite requests for action weren't having any effect either. I don't know if it's the "endless" polite requests that have actually led to a little traction, or if it's the "toxic" comments that have done it, or the combination of both. But the staff has been making it clear and explicit - for years - that they would prefer not to, for almost anything that members have asked. Even as the site finances and membership dwindle.

Even the fact that we ever got to the point of having fairly regular site updates, with issues kinda-sorta tracked from update to update, took a huge amount of "hounding". Months and months and months of it. Same for getting even one mod to interact with members in those threads.

I too would prefer a staff that doesn't need to be hounded into even basic action. Improvements shouldn't require committed, sustained begging, cajoling, or hounding.


Which is why I am hoping very much that Mefi as a nonprofit will prioritize effective, capable, energetic leadership and staffing. I am hoping to hear a lot more about the new structure is going to help us get there in the near future. Without that, I worry that a nonprofit with the same internal systems and people is going to be much of the same.
posted by trig at 12:44 PM on December 20 [15 favorites]

From my perspective, the main thing that’s wrong with MetaFilter is the toxic atmosphere in MetaTalk.

If we are going to operate as community-run site, the forum for community discussions needs to be functional, and not a place where bullying is tolerated.
posted by Kattullus at 1:09 PM on December 20 [29 favorites]

I'm impressed by all the progress.

I had a quick look at the demo. It was a bit shocking at first to see reaction buttons below the post - so un-metafilter-y - but then I remembered how useful those buttons are for getting good discussions. So if, like me, your first reaction is an unpleasant one, I really would encourage you to give it a chance.

(I'm not quite sure how it helps, but it seems to steer the gut reactions towards the buttons so that the text reactions are both more meaningful and more thoughtful.)
posted by demi-octopus at 1:20 PM on December 20 [4 favorites]

It's a Festivus miracle!
posted by glonous keming at 1:28 PM on December 20 [4 favorites]

I think if you leave an angry emoticon choice for comment favoriting that it will be used for ill will towards users but thats my only apprehension.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:30 PM on December 20 [3 favorites]

About the demo, I'm not sure about an angry emoji.
posted by NotLost at 1:39 PM on December 20 [2 favorites]

Like. I don't want that level of emotion-leaving on my comments, I can just picture someone using "sad emoticon" to make fun of something I said. Favorite or no favorite is at least is somewhat neutral. But I might be biased because these are the same emoticon choices for my work email and I find them eyerolling and tiring sometimes.
posted by tiny frying pan at 1:40 PM on December 20 [3 favorites]

Update: [the test site] will ... be open to all members by the end of February

Also Update, different section: Replies and quotes in comments similar to this demo [link]

user: I had a quick look at the demo. It was a bit shocking at first to see reaction buttons below the post

It seems like at least two plenty of people have understood "this demo" to mean "the test version of the new Metafilter".

I understood that "demo" link to be referring only to the feature "replies and quotes in comments" (and that bullet point is not in the "New Site Status" section). The link has no "Metafilter Demo" text or anything vaguely hinting in that direction. Or possibly, I'm Principal Skinner here, but I hope not, cuz that demo loses everything I like about metafilter's style
posted by sylvanshine at 1:42 PM on December 20 [5 favorites]

I'm glad there is not a plan to implement up/downvoting or comment threading, even though I know a lot of people feel those would improve Metafilter. I think reddit has become a really valuable, maybe indispensable, part of the internet ecosystem, but that doesn't mean its features need to be replicated everywhere. A linear and static conversation offers something, I don't know, egalitarian? participatory? that in my opinion still has value to keep around.
posted by dusty potato at 1:48 PM on December 20 [8 favorites]

Yeah - I just checked the linked demo (on mobile) and I'm not sure what I'm actually seeing.

Are we moving to threaded comments and emoji reactions? Is that link actual metafilter dev work? Or is the link just meant to be a generic example of what quoting and replying means, for people who don't know?

(If yes, and these major changes have been being worked on behind the scenes with no user discussion while we've been told "bear with us" for basic, much-discussed, much-requested changes and bug fixes for, once again, years - then sorry but what the hell?)
posted by trig at 1:49 PM on December 20 [6 favorites]

GIVE ME AN ANGRY BUTTON TO PRESS
posted by mittens at 1:50 PM on December 20 [5 favorites]

Great to hear this part of the transition is finally done. Hopefully, we can soon get beyond a legal transition and onto an actual one that involves some leadership for the staff and a chance for them to prove they weren't the problem all along. I don't think they were (definitely not all, anyway), but absent leadership will always make the whole team look bad.
posted by dg at 1:53 PM on December 20 [6 favorites]

It is huge to be able to announce an accomplishment like this as the year closes. Huge. Congratulations to all.
posted by eirias at 1:57 PM on December 20 [3 favorites]

From my perspective, the main thing that’s wrong with MetaFilter is the toxic atmosphere in MetaTalk.

I disagree.
posted by knobknosher at 1:58 PM on December 20 [5 favorites]

From my perspective, the main thing that's wrong with MetaFilter is that people think that the main thing that's wrong with MetaFilter is the toxic atmosphere in MetaTalk.
posted by april of time at 2:04 PM on December 20 [12 favorites]

Also, if this is where we're workshopping the features in the demo (?), personally I don't like the emoji reactions at all. Not really for social reasons-- I think there are already way more direct ways for people on here to antagonize each other-- but it just seems like unnecessary cruft that makes me feel like I'm on facebook or the comment section of a low-quality newspaper.
posted by dusty potato at 2:10 PM on December 20 [10 favorites]

Yeah as the best of the web we should be insulting each other with words, not emojis ♥️
posted by phunniemee at 2:12 PM on December 20 [13 favorites]

this 97-year-old web forum's users still antagonize each other the old-fashioned way
posted by dusty potato at 2:15 PM on December 20 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure what I'm actually seeing.

I did mean this as a serious question. What is that link means to show? What are the UI changes being developed? Does that demo page show how things are supposed to work and/or look? What are we supposed to understand about upcoming site changes?

Also:
- What are the upcoming improvements to flagging?
- What's the plan for community input on all these changes?
- Did the nonprofit board know about these upcoming changes and approve them?
posted by trig at 2:42 PM on December 20 [7 favorites]

The linked demo is just an example page on the Waterhole platform site, so I wouldn't read anything design-intent-wise into it beyond being a pre-existing functional demonstration of the "reply" button attached to each comment and the "quote" button that pops up if you select some text in a comment.
posted by lucidium at 2:44 PM on December 20 [2 favorites]

*inhales*
That said, I think emoji reactions can be a useful pressure valve.
posted by lucidium at 2:47 PM on December 20 [1 favorite]

I think the transition deserves its own post.

The nonprofit board has been working very hard to get this done. They deserve some kudos.

I think moderators coming to this thread to be negative are being quite disrespectful to the board, if I’m honest.
posted by knobknosher at 2:47 PM on December 20 [5 favorites]

I disagree
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:49 PM on December 20 [5 favorites]

I think moderators coming to this thread to be negative are being quite disrespectful to the board, if I’m honest.

Let me walk this back. I think I’m being too harsh because they are responding to negative comments aimed towards them.

I just feel the way this announcement is being handled is kinda depressing and that makes me sad. I don’t know anyone’s motives but it comes across as almost passive aggressive and that bums me out.
posted by knobknosher at 2:51 PM on December 20 [6 favorites]

trig's questions really need answering ASAP, imho.

Is the Waterhole site just an example of a similar Laravel-based discussion forum or is the new site going to be hosted on Waterhole? Because if Metafilter is going to turn into yet another cardboard cutout MS Teams-style "workspace".. yeah, no.
posted by fight or flight at 2:51 PM on December 20 [10 favorites]

I think the transition deserves its own post.

This post says there will be one
posted by Pre-Taped Call In Show at 3:13 PM on December 20 [8 favorites]

no jokes, no snark, i just want to say thanks to everyone who helped get this done, and let's keep building wins into the future, together.

here's to another 25 years.
posted by glonous keming at 3:16 PM on December 20 [17 favorites]

This post says there will be one

Thanks—I appreciate the correction. I think it would have been cool for the metafilter staff to make their own post but I will be the change I want to see in the world and shut up about it
posted by knobknosher at 3:38 PM on December 20 [2 favorites]

Kudos! It’s a big move and hard won. Thank you to those who have made this happen!
posted by samthemander at 4:03 PM on December 20 [2 favorites]

I think moderators coming to this thread to be negative are being quite disrespectful to the board, if I’m honest.

I just feel the way this announcement is being handled is kinda depressing and that makes me sad. I don’t know anyone’s motives but it comes across as almost passive aggressive and that bums me out.

My sincere apologies. I, personally, could not be happier and have never been more hopeful about the future of the site. And, truly, both Jessamyn and the Board have been fantastic and deserve nothing but praise for the huge amount of support, love, attention, care and dedication they have put toward this milestone. The LLC, felt like a new chapter for MeFi, but this feels like an entirely new book. I, too, hope we can soon get beyond a legal transition and onto an actual one.

I think it would have been cool for the metafilter staff to make their own post

There will be plenty of time for that, we just wanted to get the news out as soon as this happened.
posted by loup (staff) at 4:36 PM on December 20 [12 favorites]

Thanks loup, really appreciate this and hope the transition goes smoothly for everyone!
posted by knobknosher at 4:48 PM on December 20 [3 favorites]

I'm having one set of (good, hopeful, if a bit wary) emotions about the transition, and a completely different set of emotions about the oh btw side note we're turning Mefi into a threaded-comment emoji-full site stuff. Maybe, our communication's unclear. And we're not answering questions about it.

Seriously: what?
posted by trig at 5:13 PM on December 20 [8 favorites]

If anyone's not sure what I'm talking about, I'm referring to this part of the update:

- Replies and quotes in comments similar to this demo (log into see functionality)

If you haven't checked out the demo link, seriously check out the demo link. I'm hoping that much of it is irrelevant to what is actually being implemented for Mefi, but... could we get some actual clarification and communication about this?
posted by trig at 5:27 PM on December 20 [7 favorites]

Yeah that demo… is not Metafiltery at all. What is that?
posted by Vatnesine at 5:32 PM on December 20 [2 favorites]

It's just an example page from a code library the new site might use.
posted by lucidium at 5:36 PM on December 20 [5 favorites]

Also we have tiny flags now so what else is there to fix with that? As I remember, people pulled their hair out and screamed and gnashed their teeth about the flags and then they were changed. And since then it’s been a non-issue. So what is left to do with them?
posted by Vatnesine at 5:38 PM on December 20

In regards to what features are relevant from that demo page: Replies and quotes in comments similar to this demo

I took this to literally mean that only the replies and quotes shown in this demo are relevant, and not anything else, like the emojis. From what I can see there aren’t threaded comments but if you reply to someone then your comment will reflect that instead of us having to do it manually, which I am pretty into since this is a reply to trig’s comment above and I am too lazy (and fat-fingered on mobile) to make it clear who I am replying to at the beginning of my comment.

Also unrelated to the above except that I want to send some appreciation to people like trig: for what it’s worth, on the times when I happened to read MetaFilter and specifically MetaTalk in the past couple years since I basically stopped participating here at all, I would have agreed that people are really rude and harsh to the mods here, BUT, after recently spending a truly insane amount of time reading past Meta threads, I have done a complete turnaround on who I think is making this place less pleasant.

I truly appreciate every single person who is still making jokes, pointing out mistakes that have never been addressed, and asking for accountability, and it is because of you all and your supposed bullying that I want to come back and participate more across the site. I have seen you all respond in good faith and step up and try to propose solutions only to see those efforts get totally ignored over and over again. The fact that any of you are still here and engaged makes it obvious to me that you care about this site.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 5:39 PM on December 20 [17 favorites]

Brookhorse, that is a fantastic feedback document. I think it summarises a whole lot of really important stuff covered in the last few years (?) of contentious metatalks in a really good way.

Huzzah for progress! I hope that Jessamyn will feel better now not owning metafilter, and thank you for taking on an epic task to get us here.
posted by freethefeet at 6:00 PM on December 20 [7 favorites]

It's just an example page from a code library the new site might use

[Kicks empty Jerry can under couch, sheepishly blows out match]
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 6:00 PM on December 20 [3 favorites]

The linked demo is just an example page on the Waterhole platform site, so I wouldn't read anything design-intent-wise into it beyond being a pre-existing functional demonstration of the "reply" button attached to each comment and the "quote" button that pops up if you select some text in a comment.

This is exactly right and I'm sorry for causing any confusion.

Is the Waterhole site just an example of a similar Laravel-based discussion forum or is the new site going to be hosted on Waterhole?

Just an example of a similar forum, from which I'll appropriate the most MetaFilter-like features.

I took this to literally mean that only the replies and quotes shown in this demo are relevant, and not anything else, like the emojis.

Yes, that's correct.
posted by kirkaracha (staff) at 6:13 PM on December 20 [14 favorites]

Just a reminder, from the perspective of a WebDev (IANYWD): I have seen a number of complaints about the new site not being done yet, and I also see lots of feature requests/condemnations from the community here in MeTa. These things are incompatible. Either we let the site be coded and then praise it/offer improvement ideas, or we keep arguing about ponies until the heat death of the universe. We can't do both.
posted by jet_pack_in_a_can at 6:17 PM on December 20 [17 favorites]

Ha, Kirk beat me to it.

let the site be coded and then praise it/offer improvement ideas
I agree! And no we won't have emoji reactions. Also, remember we will not be sharing the "final product" but rather giving access to a MVP of the site for testing. From there I think the path ahead is a lot more collaborative and open to feedback, given the nature and goal of MeFiCoFo.

Every week I meet with Kirkaracha and we go over priorities, planning, and overall philosophy behind the project. And here are some principles both agree on that can give you an idea of what to expect for the MVP:

– Prioritize functionality over appearance (we can get assistance with front end development later).
– Build it in a way that can be easily modified/upgraded.
– Prioritize accessibility.
– Make sure there's an easy way to grant different levels of access to different features (to account for different roles or even groups like the BIPOC Board, and, of course volunteers)
– Try not to build stuff from scratch (à la good devs copy, great devs appropriate)
posted by loup (staff) at 6:24 PM on December 20 [6 favorites]

This is a good update and it's been great to see the rush of details and enthusiasm from lots of staff in the last day or two.
posted by one for the books at 7:15 PM on December 20 [3 favorites]

Thanks, kirkaracha. I'd asked that a ways upthread ("is the link just meant to be a generic example of what quoting and replying means, for people who don't know?") and the lack of an answer, combined with other people's discussion of emoji reactions here, was worrying.

I think the path ahead is a lot more collaborative and open to feedback, given the nature and goal of MeFiCoFo.

Yes, please. Transparency and acting on feedback have been basically the two biggest asks for a long time.

(In the meantime, could you let us know about the moderation log plans and what the flagging improvement is?)

Given the (well-earned, pretty deep) trust gap between users and site leadership, I'm hoping communication is going to start being consciously more careful and more thorough. Please don't leave us guessing or in the dark about what's actually going on. A number of people asked questions in this thread besides me. Please don't leave us hanging.

the thorn bushes have roses, thank you. It's no fun to feel like a bad guy :-)
posted by trig at 7:22 PM on December 20 [6 favorites]

By the way, about replies: in that demo, you can follow a link from a reply to see the original comment it's replying too, which is nice. There's no link from the original to its replies, though. That's an unusual feature for unthreaded comments, but I've seen it in one forum and it's actually really helpful. Comments there have a display like "[0 replies]" or "[13 replies]", so for example - in a use case relevant to Metafilter - if there's some comment you feel angry about, you can immediately see that hey, 13 other people have also apparently felt that way, so maybe you don't actually need to rush in and add to the pileon. Maybe what you want to say has already been said. And if you click the "[13 replies]" you can see little snippets of said replies, with links to them. Which gives you the ability to follow a sub-conversation within the comments while maintaining an overall flat thread experience.

I'm definitely not expecting any complicated features like that at this point, but it might be a useful one for Mefi down the line and worth thinking about for the future.
posted by trig at 7:41 PM on December 20 [6 favorites]

By the way, about replies: in that demo, you can follow a link from a reply to see the original comment it's replying too, which is nice. There's no link from the original to its replies, though.

If you click the speech bubble next to the reaction emoji on a comment, you get effectively a sub-thread with all the replies to that comment.
posted by Dysk at 10:12 PM on December 20 [3 favorites]

Oh, nice! I missed that.
posted by trig at 2:23 AM on December 21

trig: Given the (well-earned, pretty deep) trust gap between users and site leadership, I'm hoping communication is going to start being consciously more careful and more thorough.

I don’t think that’s at all what’s going on here. I think this is a story that you, and a group of other people that hang out in MetaTalk tell yourself to excuse your behavior towards staff and volunteers.

You said in your comment that you didn’t like to feel like a bad guy. I want to be really clear about this, I don’t think anyone here is acting from a desire to hurt people, rather I believe that everyone here is deeply personally invested in MetaFilter as a place, and feels emotionally rooted here. This is community for a lot of people in a meaningful way, this is our home, and we all want our home to feel good.

However, it has somehow become socially permissible to make personal attacks on people who work and volunteer for MetaFilter. This is a textbook case of a workplace bullying situation (also known as mobbing, if that terminology is more familiar to you).

As a rule, people who are in a bullying group don’t feel like they’re participating in harmful behavior, and don’t intend to harm. And I genuinely believe that no one here is aiming to hurt people. For the people on the other side of this group dynamic, however, this is painful.

I know I’m like a broken record on this, but if we’re genuinely going to be a self-governing web community, our forum for community discussion and governance has to be functional, and it won’t be if bullying is socially permissible.
posted by Kattullus at 6:32 AM on December 21 [20 favorites]

I agree with Kattullus.
posted by JanetLand at 6:56 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]

Katullus, it's hard to have this discussion with you without knowing how much you've been following Metatalk over the past few months and the past few years. In other words, I don't know if we're seeing things differently because of different takes on the same information, or if our takes are based on different amount of exposure to what's been going on.

What does bullying mean to you? Is it about using ugly words or a sharp tone? Is it being direct about the staff's failures in any tone at all? Is it, after years of closely following things, coming to the conclusion that the current staff makeup is either unable or unwilling to fix the most important problems with this site, and has itself been responsible for several of them? Is it coming to the conclusion, after years of closely following things, that for any hope of real improvement to happen, this group needs to either be closely, firmly overseen by someone with better judgment and leadership skills, or just replaced by people with better judgment and leadership skills? Is there any way of expressing those admittedly harsh, but serious conclusions that you would find acceptable?

Will it be bullying, in the upcoming thread, to - if the board does not address this themselves, which I hope they do because I don't actually want to do it - advocate strongly for transparency as to the board's plans for the next several months, and to advocate strongly for bringing in leadership that will at minimum impose accountability on the site staff? Such that we might finally have a staff whose word means something, a staff that listens to input instead of ignoring or flatly rejecting it, a staff that doesn't moderate based on self-protection, a staff that doesn't repeatedly, baldly lie to users, a staff that can be counted on to complete projects in reasonable timeframes and to communicate in a respectful and thorough way?

(If that list of "doesn'ts" seems exaggerated to anyone, or you (anyone) can't think of multiple examples of what each refers to, then please, either withhold judgment, or really read all those frustrating Metatalk threads you've noped out of. For the past while I've made a particular effort in comments to look up and provide some explanatory links to things I mention, so that people who aren't following can at least understand at least a small part of where the frustration is coming from even if they don't agree with it. But for this comment, I'm too tired. Go back and read even just the past two months of Metatalk. Not enough? Make it four or six. If that's too big a time commitment that's fine - but again, consider withholding judgment if you're not willing to see what people are responding to.)

If bullying is, to you, less about the content of what's said than the way in which it's said - if it's the sarcasm and the jibes and accusations and so on that get to you - then I completely understand, but wonder at how you miss the sarcasm and jibes and accusations - mostly from a minority of users, occasionally from mods themselves - towards users who express criticism, or even just disappointment, about what's been going on. As for disrespect, I have no words for how disrespectful so much of the mods' communication and behavior has been. Not all of it - and I personally have made a point of trying to acknowledge and applaud the good stuff, and I think a lot of others have too - but the good stuff has been in short supply and swamped by the dysfunctional and the ugly.

I know I’m like a broken record on this, but if we’re genuinely going to be a self-governing web community, our forum for community discussion and governance has to be functional, and it won’t be if bullying is socially permissible.

I'm like a broken record on a different message: if we’re genuinely going to be a self-governing web community, our forum for community discussion and governance has to be one where community input is actually (a) heard and (b) not sent to /dev/null with varying amounts of stonewalling, delaying, obfuscation, or prejudice.

The term bullying does involve power, and right now the only power dissatisfied users have is to leave, withhold funding, or try to change things by speaking up on Metatalk. And speaking up on Metatalk has almost never created actual change - except when things get ugly, at which point some small concessions have been made. That is not a healthy structure incentivizing healthy behavior on any side. The power to change that structure is in the hands of the people who actually get to impose their decisions. Those are the mods, and now - in what will hopefully be a real change on this dynamic - the new board.

But the members of the board - and how many they are and who they are is something I'd guess a lot of people reading this thread probably don't know - have not been very active in MetaTalk, with the partial exception of Rhaomi. Have they been following along? Do they know what users are so het up about? Do they, like Katullus, think this is just a case of never-satisfied users bullying the mods and being mean?

If so, I'm worried.
posted by trig at 10:28 AM on December 21 [20 favorites]

Seems like there are few people here who will need a grindstone from Santa next week.
posted by adamvasco at 11:01 AM on December 21 [3 favorites]

I would actually love some good grinding tools :-)
posted by trig at 11:07 AM on December 21 [3 favorites]

There are some people (maybe me included) who could plausibly be seen as bullying or mobbing the mods. I tend to disagree with that characterization, given the history with specific people who are persistently harsh in tone and content (eg racially charged deletions/mischaracterizations), but I see how someone could get there.

Trig is 1000% not one of those people and has worked really, really hard to be fair and constructive and I’m unhappy to see them being treated this way.
posted by knobknosher at 11:16 AM on December 21 [5 favorites]

I think this is a story that you, and a group of other people that hang out in MetaTalk tell yourself to excuse your behavior towards staff and volunteers.

Separately, I think this is a story you and people who have not been paying much attention tell yourself to avoid acknowledging that there are not clearcut villains in this particular dynamic.
posted by knobknosher at 11:18 AM on December 21 [8 favorites]

What does bullying mean to you?

on the most basic level, it means using a power imbalance to your advantage.

Which I hope isn't overtly accusing anyone of anything. I haven't been in these threads enough to really have a firm position in that regard.
posted by philip-random at 11:34 AM on December 21 [2 favorites]

... and then on preview (and not wanting to abuse the edit window), I realize that's far too broad a definition. Because there's pretty much always a power imbalance in situations involving humans. I guess, what needs to be added is that bullying is when this power advantage is used to throw one's weight around, with the sly trick of power being that we often don't even know we have it. It creeps up on us/into us. It uses us in not necessarily benevolent ways without us really being aware.
posted by philip-random at 11:38 AM on December 21

knobknosher, trig literally admits upthread to hounding the staff over administrative details. I don't think anyone here is saying there haven't also been well-justified complaints recently, especially in damaging interactions with users where the staff themselves walked back decisions and/or apologized. Certainly incidents like those have unclear boundaries, and there may be others that are unresolved.

But it isn't right to conflate this with complaints over administrative delays, unclear job duties, lack of basic project and/or product management practices, and other backseat micromanagement, hall monitor, and/or Yelp review kinds of stuff. Personally, I am fine with a staff that keeps this place just north of Memepool with the caveat that users with the perspective to guide us on real notorious matters of systemic social impact need the latitude to say that how they need to.

But I definitely can't imagine thinking hounding people about administrative trivia was OK. Getting to a community-run site was certainly an achievement, but not only is getting there by hounding people not OK, it remains to be seen if any of it mattered. Honestly the new feature I'm most excited about is the muting function, because it's hard to quit a site I've been reading since August 2000 cold turkey and muting batches of people very gradually was very helpful in leaving Facebook and Twitter.
posted by Wobbuffet at 11:48 AM on December 21 [3 favorites]

I don’t want to get into an extended back and forth over this, but will say that:

trig literally admits upthread to hounding the staff over administrative details

This is not an accurate characterization of their comment, which used about a dozen scare quotes around the word “hounding” and did not include the words “administrative” or “details”.

If you disagree with them, fine, but it’s not fair to misrepresent what they said.

Honestly, I see this as (1) Brandon, to his credit, putting in a lot of needed effort in and (2) that effort being spurred on by needed critical feedback.

It’s understandable for people to see the improved situation and then think that the effort it took to get there was obviously not needed. But the bullying/mobbing accusations seem unnecessary.
posted by knobknosher at 11:59 AM on December 21 [6 favorites]

where the staff themselves walked back decisions and/or apologized

One more thing—some credit to the staff for this, but it only happened after several people spoke up. The initial reaction was blaming users, giving timeouts, etc. I don’t believe in holding that over their heads forever, but I also don’t believe in whitewashing the incident by making it seem that the staff “themselves” walked things back. No. They did not do that independently or spontaneously.
posted by knobknosher at 12:03 PM on December 21 [7 favorites]

This is not an accurate characterization

What trig said included, "I too would prefer a staff that doesn't need to be hounded into even basic action. Improvements shouldn't require committed, sustained begging, cajoling, or hounding." Are you or trig saying this was limited to action on the rice cooker or Uber threads and debatably two others where the mod actions still stand? Because if it's in any way linked to this thread, I think it's administrative trivia.
posted by Wobbuffet at 12:05 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]

whitewashing

I would be grateful if you applied your own standards of mischaracterization to your own comments.
posted by Wobbuffet at 12:07 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]

I don’t think we agree on enough to have a constructive discussion so I’m going to move on from this at this point.
posted by knobknosher at 12:08 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]

I also agree with Kattalus.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:14 PM on December 21 [4 favorites]

The thing that's toughest for me is when the...loudest people here bring the full force of their rhetoric to bear against the more trivial of complaints. Like, often I can step back and see that they have a point -- they're not totally wrong -- but they've swept everything up into such a big ball of trouble that they've (to my eye) lost perspective about what's actually important, actually a danger to the site. (For one thing, they seem to have an outsized sense of how many people have actually buttoned, walked away, or even stopped donations recently in response to this stuff, even though at least one of those recent examples probably represents a real miscarriage of justice, and definitely represents a real slip from ideals we agreed to a couple years ago.^*)

There are a lot of ways in which I look at the blue and green and think: whatever's going on behind the scenes, and ignoring maybe a couple edge cases here and there, things are running fine. And since the blue and the green are the heart of the site, that means a lot.

But then in one of these recent threads someone started posting links to older mod/staff MeTa interactions, and it was kind of amazing to see how far we've...shifted from those days. We probably can't ever go back, but, as that person pointed out, it would be worth collecting some more of those as examples of what to aim a little closer to. (I think that may already be having some effect.)

Lastly, I think a lot of this stuff is congealing into something that's feeling very partisan, at least as an analogy. There are some differences in underlying ground-truth, or maybe differences in...focus, if not in values, that are leading to very different assessments of the current state of things and definitely to very different calls for what to do moving forward. And neither number-of-comments or favorite-counts in MeTa are cutting it to get a sense where the site as a whole stands on it (they've varied so much between the most recent MeTa threads). I hope we can hold a poll or referendum some time soon, on a bunch of these questions, so everyone inclined to position themselves on either "side" can have a better sense of what the site as a whole thinks. We need that, before anyone with really strong takes on this -- in either direction -- will be willing to bend.

^*The other most prominent recent example I'm less clear about. I think they may have just flamed out! And then repeatedly continued to flame out! But I can kinda see the other side to that, if I squint right.
posted by nobody at 1:49 PM on December 21 [6 favorites]

I, too, agree with Kattullus.

grindstone from Santa next week.
dude, so last night I'm doing research for a post and I thought I'd do it on Harold and Vita and then decided to do it on Vita and Virginia and I came across your excellent post
so I find a few things about just Virginia and vita, was going to start off with a quote from Nigel Nicholson's collection where is ....it....ah, look at me, dogged eared the page, bad, 10 January 1923.

"tomorrow I dine with my darling Mrs.woolf at richmond, a picnic more than a dinner, as the press has overflowed both into the dining room and into the larder. I love Mrs woolf and with a sick passion. so will you. in fact, I don't think I will let you know her."

so I was thinking of like doing a sub addendum kind of post sorta worked it out, good pull quote but it just it didn't augment the original post thought the work they wrote to another, Vita and Seducers in Ecuador with Virginia's Orlando was interesting.

so I'm going to do one on Medbh McGuckian

anywho, the flurry of updates and progress thus updated is encouraging, thanks.
posted by clavdivs at 2:04 PM on December 21 [3 favorites]

Trig, I just want to say again that when I was reading past threads in MetaTalk, your presence was immensely appreciated. I don’t know how to keep this from becoming a back and forth about you and other users Kattalus calls out by name but it just…feels silly when in this very thread you’ve been replying in good faith and humor to mod comments and giving credit where credit is due to improvements made. (Speaking of credit where credit is due, I think Brandon handles criticism with good faith and humor too.)

It’s entirely possible people have been engaged this whole time and disagree with me, and that’s fine, really. I don’t mean to imply if people just read all the things I did that we’d reach the same conclusions about other people’s intent and behavior, but since I completely changed my perspective when going from casual reading to prolific reader of contentious MetaTalk threads, I echo Knobknosher in wondering if people have been following along closely or just casually and if that would change how you feel about negative comments about moderation or staffing decisions.

Clicking through the comment history of some folks you (general you, not replying to anyone in particular here) think are acting like bullies could tell a different story, I did that a lot when trying to get “caught up” with a bunch of conflicts I missed while not engaging with the site. I cannot recommend the route I eventually took which was reading MetaTalk threads like novels for the last month or two because I am embarrassed to admit how many hours I put into that. However it made what I was reading as oddly hostile comments in isolation when I was just skimming MetaTalk threads turn out to be understandable and from people who were engaging in helpful or positive ways too and not just shitting all over threads no matter what.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 2:05 PM on December 21 [9 favorites]

Going off on a barista that you feel is regularly antagonistic, frustrating, or incompetent may feel good, garner some sympathetic “Right on”s, and possibly even lead to a constructive outcome, but one should also be prepared for other patrons and staff at the coffee shop to think you’re a giant fucking asshole.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 2:23 PM on December 21 [1 favorite]

Yeah, for sure, but is that what is happening here? Like Brandon replied, let's give each other the grace of believing the other person is suggesting, talking, arguing, or working to do what's best for the site — are people regularly going off on their barista or are you setting up them as some straw Karen analogy when generally they are just asking for accountability and getting frustrated by serious lapses in judgement but willing to keep engaging because they care about the site just as much as you do? I think we all agree the behavior you are describing is one of an asshole but I don’t think it describes any active mefites.
posted by the thorn bushes have roses at 2:33 PM on December 21 [4 favorites]

MetaFilter: you’re a giant fucking asshole

lol happy solstice!
posted by glonous keming at 2:33 PM on December 21 [2 favorites]

Ultimately, I don’t think that coming across as an asshole is necessarily a bad thing. It’s distinct from being an asshole, and it’s distinct from being wrong. I realize that for a lot of people, that point won’t resonate.

Anyway, there’s a bit of a double bind here. Going into detail about the history seems likely to lead to more accusations of bullying because it necessarily requires criticizing mods. And personally, I think it would be shitty for the mods so it’s not something I would enjoy doing.

However, not going into detail about the history allows for a lot of minimization and for the shaping of a narrative that I find insulting and unfair to many people.

That’s life, I guess!
posted by knobknosher at 2:38 PM on December 21 [4 favorites]

One other point—I hope my last one on this particular topic—I find it especially unfair to conflate the treatment of the mods with the treatment of volunteers. I think it has been very different, as is appropriate.
posted by knobknosher at 2:40 PM on December 21 [7 favorites]

MetaTalk: Ultimately, I don’t think that coming across as an asshole is necessarily a bad thing.
posted by box at 3:11 PM on December 21

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