The Last Thing My Mother Wanted
May 9, 2024 11:36 AM Subscribe
Healthy at age 74, she decided there was nothing on earth still keeping her here, not even us.
CW: Suicide
It is September 28, 2022, the day before my mother is scheduled to inject herself with 15 grams of Nembutal — enough to sedate three and a half elephants, the doctor says. She would not need to worry about waking up or being cremated alive. This was a relief to her, Mom says with a smile.
CW: Suicide
It is September 28, 2022, the day before my mother is scheduled to inject herself with 15 grams of Nembutal — enough to sedate three and a half elephants, the doctor says. She would not need to worry about waking up or being cremated alive. This was a relief to her, Mom says with a smile.
This essay is incredibly heartbreaking and painful in way I didn't expect.
Content warning for likely untreated mental illness and prolonged emotional abuse.
posted by muddgirl at 11:56 AM on May 9 [8 favorites]
Content warning for likely untreated mental illness and prolonged emotional abuse.
posted by muddgirl at 11:56 AM on May 9 [8 favorites]
Our mom did the same thing in 2021 in her late 70s. Well, we're not upper-class twits who could fly off to Switzerland so it had to be more of a drawn-out process, but the local hospice organization helped us out a lot as she gave up fighting her chronic health conditions.
All her childhood friends had already passed last decade and she figured it was time to go, too.
posted by torokunai at 11:59 AM on May 9 [3 favorites]
All her childhood friends had already passed last decade and she figured it was time to go, too.
posted by torokunai at 11:59 AM on May 9 [3 favorites]
This is one of the best essays I've read in a long time. It's only about 4000 words, but what words they are -- not only is it written with enormous depth of feeling and grace and insight and emotional clarity, but the prose is absolutely incredible.
I read this the day it came out, and ever 18 hours or so since then, I've re-read it because it keeps knocking around in my head. I'm so glad that the author has her sister and her husband and her children.
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:11 PM on May 9 [12 favorites]
I read this the day it came out, and ever 18 hours or so since then, I've re-read it because it keeps knocking around in my head. I'm so glad that the author has her sister and her husband and her children.
posted by joyceanmachine at 12:11 PM on May 9 [12 favorites]
This is an incredibly complex situation just in theory, made harder by, in this instance, centering around a terribly difficult (and yes, likely mentally ill in some form) person.
I think there is going to be a decades-long discussion/legal battle about who can make this kind of decision and what kind of safeguards/warnings should or will be part of it, and different countries will (already do) have different policies and it's overwhelming to ponder, but at the same time, I have often wondered why I don't (currently) have an easy and legal way to choose my own ending point and just be done with it all in a medical setting, the same way I can see a doctor for any other condition.
Sometimes someone's life is done, even though it isn't over. We don't like to talk about that, and I imagine this will be a difficult conversation here, let alone nation- or world-wide.
posted by tzikeh at 12:12 PM on May 9 [16 favorites]
I think there is going to be a decades-long discussion/legal battle about who can make this kind of decision and what kind of safeguards/warnings should or will be part of it, and different countries will (already do) have different policies and it's overwhelming to ponder, but at the same time, I have often wondered why I don't (currently) have an easy and legal way to choose my own ending point and just be done with it all in a medical setting, the same way I can see a doctor for any other condition.
Sometimes someone's life is done, even though it isn't over. We don't like to talk about that, and I imagine this will be a difficult conversation here, let alone nation- or world-wide.
posted by tzikeh at 12:12 PM on May 9 [16 favorites]
“ The world was going to hell, and she did not want to see more; she did not get joy out of the everyday pleasures of life or her relationships; and she did not want to face the degradations of aging.”
Prediction: This will be commonplace within 10 years.
posted by spudsilo at 12:18 PM on May 9 [28 favorites]
Prediction: This will be commonplace within 10 years.
posted by spudsilo at 12:18 PM on May 9 [28 favorites]
If this is at all accurate, the author's mother sounds like a profoundly selfish and narcissistic person.
I lost my mother ten years ago. And I miss her everyday. Mothers' Day hurts. The holidays are filled with a hollow ache, remembeeing times that will never come back. She struggled to the end to stay with us. Leaving your family because you can't be bothered to live in luxury. I can't imagine the emptiness involves.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:22 PM on May 9 [9 favorites]
I lost my mother ten years ago. And I miss her everyday. Mothers' Day hurts. The holidays are filled with a hollow ache, remembeeing times that will never come back. She struggled to the end to stay with us. Leaving your family because you can't be bothered to live in luxury. I can't imagine the emptiness involves.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:22 PM on May 9 [9 favorites]
"I gave her the poem and she gave me my punishment. I would not be going on spring break with her and my sister, I needed to get a job to help pay for the damage, and I wasn’t allowed to say “I love you” to her for three months. I pushed back, telling her I did love her and had just made a mistake, but hit a wall of silence."
I have so much compassion for the author and her sister. I hope, in time, they are able to heal from that horrific childhood and the myriad ways their mother failed them as a parent.
This isn't the story about assisted suicide that you normally read, and I think that's actually a good thing. This is one of the rare stories where I feel like the survivors will, in fact, be better off than the would be had this death been somehow prevented.
posted by anastasiav at 12:23 PM on May 9 [10 favorites]
I have so much compassion for the author and her sister. I hope, in time, they are able to heal from that horrific childhood and the myriad ways their mother failed them as a parent.
This isn't the story about assisted suicide that you normally read, and I think that's actually a good thing. This is one of the rare stories where I feel like the survivors will, in fact, be better off than the would be had this death been somehow prevented.
posted by anastasiav at 12:23 PM on May 9 [10 favorites]
"her voice animated only when she was describing a plan to smite anyone responsible for a grievance"
This could be about either my mom or my mother-in-law, both of them mid-70's and deep down in a well of disengagement and perpetual grievance. We hear a lot of similar stuff about widowed people in their age cohort.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:25 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]
This could be about either my mom or my mother-in-law, both of them mid-70's and deep down in a well of disengagement and perpetual grievance. We hear a lot of similar stuff about widowed people in their age cohort.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:25 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]
My mother will tell us in Switzerland that, in the hospital, my grandmother was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. Later, one of my half-sisters will mention that when I was a toddler, my mother told her, outraged, that her doctor had suggested my mother, too, had BPD.
I got about the bit about her cutting off her only sister and thought, "that sounds a lot like BPD".
Having witnessed it up close, it's genuinely terrifying, and will make you question whether it's actually possible to really know anyone in a way that doesn't open you up to deep, scouring trauma. That the author seems to have gone on to have a more normal, healthy family life is very impressive.
posted by ryanshepard at 12:25 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
I got about the bit about her cutting off her only sister and thought, "that sounds a lot like BPD".
Having witnessed it up close, it's genuinely terrifying, and will make you question whether it's actually possible to really know anyone in a way that doesn't open you up to deep, scouring trauma. That the author seems to have gone on to have a more normal, healthy family life is very impressive.
posted by ryanshepard at 12:25 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that was a tough one, but worth it.
posted by malaprohibita at 12:41 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
posted by malaprohibita at 12:41 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
spudsilo: “ The world was going to hell, and she did not want to see more; she did not get joy out of the everyday pleasures of life or her relationships; and she did not want to face the degradations of aging.”
Prediction: This will be commonplace within 10 years.
I hope so--anything to move the conversation forward.
The subject of this essay is nigh-impossible to sympathize with, which tilts the conversation, but (and I am not trying to pick on you, Manwich Horror) "leaving your family because--" is approaching the question from the wrong angle. The decision is about the person who chooses to stop living because they are done, not about leaving the people who will miss them. No matter when or how the person dies, they will be leaving the people who will miss them.
If we believe in full bodily autonomy, then we need to accept that this is a part of that autonomy. If I don't own myself, what are we even doing?
posted by tzikeh at 12:48 PM on May 9 [19 favorites]
Prediction: This will be commonplace within 10 years.
I hope so--anything to move the conversation forward.
The subject of this essay is nigh-impossible to sympathize with, which tilts the conversation, but (and I am not trying to pick on you, Manwich Horror) "leaving your family because--" is approaching the question from the wrong angle. The decision is about the person who chooses to stop living because they are done, not about leaving the people who will miss them. No matter when or how the person dies, they will be leaving the people who will miss them.
If we believe in full bodily autonomy, then we need to accept that this is a part of that autonomy. If I don't own myself, what are we even doing?
posted by tzikeh at 12:48 PM on May 9 [19 favorites]
My mom is 82. She is a widow who devoted her entire adult life to her family, her husband and her two kids, and now that my dad has died and my sister and her two daughters don't visit all that often my mother just seethes sometimes.
I live near her and visit her every day but it is painful because most of the time it is just me listening to her go on about how well she treated her mother and how important family was 'back then' but now nobody does anything for her (except me, which she does sometimes mention).
She is the last of her siblings alive. Most of her friends have passed away. Her best friend, who is about her age, has a similar background (moved to America from Germany) and lost her husband at about the same time my mother did, and they consider themselves to be like sisters but that friend lives a 12 hour drive away and it has become apparent from their phone calls that her friend, who also lives alone, is affected by dementia more and more.
It's rough dealing with her sometimes but I am lucky in that I can live very close to her but separate and she is still able to live alone and can drive herself to her many medical appointments.
posted by Dirk at 12:50 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
I live near her and visit her every day but it is painful because most of the time it is just me listening to her go on about how well she treated her mother and how important family was 'back then' but now nobody does anything for her (except me, which she does sometimes mention).
She is the last of her siblings alive. Most of her friends have passed away. Her best friend, who is about her age, has a similar background (moved to America from Germany) and lost her husband at about the same time my mother did, and they consider themselves to be like sisters but that friend lives a 12 hour drive away and it has become apparent from their phone calls that her friend, who also lives alone, is affected by dementia more and more.
It's rough dealing with her sometimes but I am lucky in that I can live very close to her but separate and she is still able to live alone and can drive herself to her many medical appointments.
posted by Dirk at 12:50 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
If we believe in full bodily autonomy, then we need to accept that this is a part of that autonomy. If I don't own myself, what are we even doing?
That we should not legally forbid suicide doesn't mean that it is morally neutral or something that can be done in an ethical or unethical way.
My grandfathers both abandoned their families. That was their right. That doesn't mean the choice was beyond criticism.
People should be allowed to cheat on their spouses, abandon their children, and bereave their loves ones because they are bored. But that in no way obligates the rest of us to pretend they aren't selfish jerks for doing so.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:54 PM on May 9 [16 favorites]
That we should not legally forbid suicide doesn't mean that it is morally neutral or something that can be done in an ethical or unethical way.
My grandfathers both abandoned their families. That was their right. That doesn't mean the choice was beyond criticism.
People should be allowed to cheat on their spouses, abandon their children, and bereave their loves ones because they are bored. But that in no way obligates the rest of us to pretend they aren't selfish jerks for doing so.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 12:54 PM on May 9 [16 favorites]
The price (10,000 CHF) is a bit steep (for me, anyway). Not that I plan on going anywhere soon, but everyone should have a painless, affordable alternative to the many bad ways people are forced to die.
posted by pracowity at 12:58 PM on May 9 [11 favorites]
posted by pracowity at 12:58 PM on May 9 [11 favorites]
The subject of this essay is nigh-impossible to sympathize with
I don't know, I find her easy to sympathize with, but I've also had friends and other loved ones with BPD, and while I don't have it myself, I do have emotion-heightening trauma, and experience long-term limerance, so I think I get at least a piece of it.
When you experience romantic love incredibly intensely, the rest of life sometimes seems somewhat flat, somehow. It's not that you don't love the other people in your life, but being with them is not sustaining in the same way. You want them to be happy, you want them to be well, you deeply care about them, but it's just not the same as someone whose voice can make the entire day better.
Now, you still have to be kind to them - you have to work to ensure that you consider their feelings and needs. I would never behave in the way that this woman does to her family. But I understand how after the death of your partner of 25 years, you might feel that the world is somehow missing any joy.
I'm glad I read this article. My daughter worries about me, as someone who feels romantic love intensely - she worries because my partner is in worse physical health than me, and she worries his death will destroy me when it comes. She's not wrong to worry - I feel the fear of his death more than I feel even the fear of my parents dying. That seems sad, but natural and right: his removal, on the other hand, feels like it will create a hole in the world I will struggle to be able to survive.
But I also know that my death one instant earlier than it naturally comes would destroy my daughter, and I love her, and would never want to hurt her, so I think even if I go mad I will never go to suicide, assisted or otherwise. I know my duty to the ones I love. But that's what living would be for me, to live without the person I am in love with, duty, not joy.
posted by corb at 1:04 PM on May 9 [8 favorites]
I don't know, I find her easy to sympathize with, but I've also had friends and other loved ones with BPD, and while I don't have it myself, I do have emotion-heightening trauma, and experience long-term limerance, so I think I get at least a piece of it.
When you experience romantic love incredibly intensely, the rest of life sometimes seems somewhat flat, somehow. It's not that you don't love the other people in your life, but being with them is not sustaining in the same way. You want them to be happy, you want them to be well, you deeply care about them, but it's just not the same as someone whose voice can make the entire day better.
Now, you still have to be kind to them - you have to work to ensure that you consider their feelings and needs. I would never behave in the way that this woman does to her family. But I understand how after the death of your partner of 25 years, you might feel that the world is somehow missing any joy.
I'm glad I read this article. My daughter worries about me, as someone who feels romantic love intensely - she worries because my partner is in worse physical health than me, and she worries his death will destroy me when it comes. She's not wrong to worry - I feel the fear of his death more than I feel even the fear of my parents dying. That seems sad, but natural and right: his removal, on the other hand, feels like it will create a hole in the world I will struggle to be able to survive.
But I also know that my death one instant earlier than it naturally comes would destroy my daughter, and I love her, and would never want to hurt her, so I think even if I go mad I will never go to suicide, assisted or otherwise. I know my duty to the ones I love. But that's what living would be for me, to live without the person I am in love with, duty, not joy.
posted by corb at 1:04 PM on May 9 [8 favorites]
I dunno, thinking of it from the other side, if someone I loved very much truly, intractably wanted to die, I wouldn't feel very good about forcing them to keep living.
I think that when people have an intractable desire to die, it's not "selfish" the way just fucking off to follow your bliss in Bali or whatever would be - you're going to die. You're not going somewhere to have a better time or more nubile sexual partners or the giddy consciousness of irresponsibility, you're just going to not be. More or less healthy, more or less financially stable people who weigh the burden of consciousness against every single good thing that could possibly happen in the rest of their lives and find that being conscious truly isn't worth it are operating on a level beyond mere selfish choosing. If someone I cared about was that miserable and it seemed very unlikely that they were ever going to get better, I'd hate to keep them around suffering just so that I wouldn't be sad. I wouldn't do that to a pet, nevermind a person.
"You could maybe decide to enjoy life if you could motivate yourself to follow this therapeutic path that I have identified as something I think could work for you even though it's not what you want, and that means your misery is de facto invalid" is not reasoning that is attractive to me when we're talking about an otherwise functional adult.
I'm not saying that it isn't sad and terrible, but to me it's also sad and terrible to force someone to stay alive when they genuinely want to be dead, and forcing that on someone seems more terrible than living with the loss and accepting that at least they have the peace they wanted.
posted by Frowner at 1:08 PM on May 9 [27 favorites]
I think that when people have an intractable desire to die, it's not "selfish" the way just fucking off to follow your bliss in Bali or whatever would be - you're going to die. You're not going somewhere to have a better time or more nubile sexual partners or the giddy consciousness of irresponsibility, you're just going to not be. More or less healthy, more or less financially stable people who weigh the burden of consciousness against every single good thing that could possibly happen in the rest of their lives and find that being conscious truly isn't worth it are operating on a level beyond mere selfish choosing. If someone I cared about was that miserable and it seemed very unlikely that they were ever going to get better, I'd hate to keep them around suffering just so that I wouldn't be sad. I wouldn't do that to a pet, nevermind a person.
"You could maybe decide to enjoy life if you could motivate yourself to follow this therapeutic path that I have identified as something I think could work for you even though it's not what you want, and that means your misery is de facto invalid" is not reasoning that is attractive to me when we're talking about an otherwise functional adult.
I'm not saying that it isn't sad and terrible, but to me it's also sad and terrible to force someone to stay alive when they genuinely want to be dead, and forcing that on someone seems more terrible than living with the loss and accepting that at least they have the peace they wanted.
posted by Frowner at 1:08 PM on May 9 [27 favorites]
The Manwich Horror: People should be allowed to cheat on their spouses, abandon their children, and bereave their loves ones because they are bored. But that in no way obligates the rest of us to pretend they aren't selfish jerks for doing so.
Before I respond -- Attention Mods: please note I am not currently suicidal, nor am I experiencing suicidal ideation, nor do I have any plans to kill myself now or in the future.
I take issue with "abandon." If I choose, hypothetically, at some point in the future, to opt out of continuing my life because at that point I experience no joy, no happiness, I am uninterested in everything, and the world has nothing to offer me, would that make me a selfish jerk because my brother and nephew will be sad? Should I, instead, continue to live a life I don't want, that brings me nothing, for no purpose of my own, but rather to postpone their grief over my death until... whenever that would happen later? In what way am I living my life, and not theirs, at that point?
On preview from Frowner: if someone I loved very much truly, intractably wanted to die, I wouldn't feel very good about forcing them to keep living.
Yes, exactly this.
posted by tzikeh at 1:10 PM on May 9 [16 favorites]
Before I respond -- Attention Mods: please note I am not currently suicidal, nor am I experiencing suicidal ideation, nor do I have any plans to kill myself now or in the future.
I take issue with "abandon." If I choose, hypothetically, at some point in the future, to opt out of continuing my life because at that point I experience no joy, no happiness, I am uninterested in everything, and the world has nothing to offer me, would that make me a selfish jerk because my brother and nephew will be sad? Should I, instead, continue to live a life I don't want, that brings me nothing, for no purpose of my own, but rather to postpone their grief over my death until... whenever that would happen later? In what way am I living my life, and not theirs, at that point?
On preview from Frowner: if someone I loved very much truly, intractably wanted to die, I wouldn't feel very good about forcing them to keep living.
Yes, exactly this.
posted by tzikeh at 1:10 PM on May 9 [16 favorites]
Prediction: This will be commonplace within 10 years.
Once again, the Baby Boomers are plowing their way through and breaking the way open for the rest of us.
It was terrible to read about this woman’s life (the daughter’s) and it sounds like the mother didn’t have such a good time either. Oddly, having had a better relationship with my parents I now find myself unworried about the fact that they both have done what they want to do and are perfectly happy to go now. There’s always going to be unfinished business with parents, but absolutely nothing on the scale that this woman needed to work out with her mother. I will be pleased if they find peace.
It is extremely likely that sometime in my 70s I will be taking the same path for medical reasons, and this story reinforces for me one key tenet: I won’t be telling anybody close to me more than a few days before I go. Making people live in anticipation of your death is not a friendly thing to do.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:13 PM on May 9 [11 favorites]
Once again, the Baby Boomers are plowing their way through and breaking the way open for the rest of us.
It was terrible to read about this woman’s life (the daughter’s) and it sounds like the mother didn’t have such a good time either. Oddly, having had a better relationship with my parents I now find myself unworried about the fact that they both have done what they want to do and are perfectly happy to go now. There’s always going to be unfinished business with parents, but absolutely nothing on the scale that this woman needed to work out with her mother. I will be pleased if they find peace.
It is extremely likely that sometime in my 70s I will be taking the same path for medical reasons, and this story reinforces for me one key tenet: I won’t be telling anybody close to me more than a few days before I go. Making people live in anticipation of your death is not a friendly thing to do.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 1:13 PM on May 9 [11 favorites]
“ All the diaries were blank.”
posted by clew at 1:15 PM on May 9 [7 favorites]
posted by clew at 1:15 PM on May 9 [7 favorites]
I take issue with "abandon." If I choose, hypothetically, at some point in the future, to opt out of continuing my life because at that point I experience no joy, no happiness, I am uninterested in everything, and the world has nothing to offer me, would that make me a selfish jerk because my brother and nephew will be sad?
I can't say whether it would be selfish to choose to end your life in those circumstances. I don't know you or your relationships at all. But when you bring a life into this world or promise to be a parent and guardian to a young child I do feel you create obligations to that person that it is morally wrong to ignore.
I wasn't saying suicide is abandoning your children. I am saying that giving people autonomy means they are permitted to walk away from their families because they prefer to do so. And that we can still think it is a shitty thing to do. We don't have to choose between making suicide a forbidden act and treating every act of suicide as morally neutral. Autonomy means freedom of choice. It also means accepting the responsibility for the choices you make.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:22 PM on May 9 [7 favorites]
I can't say whether it would be selfish to choose to end your life in those circumstances. I don't know you or your relationships at all. But when you bring a life into this world or promise to be a parent and guardian to a young child I do feel you create obligations to that person that it is morally wrong to ignore.
I wasn't saying suicide is abandoning your children. I am saying that giving people autonomy means they are permitted to walk away from their families because they prefer to do so. And that we can still think it is a shitty thing to do. We don't have to choose between making suicide a forbidden act and treating every act of suicide as morally neutral. Autonomy means freedom of choice. It also means accepting the responsibility for the choices you make.
posted by The Manwich Horror at 1:22 PM on May 9 [7 favorites]
I think there are a lot of valid point made here, but one thing I come back to is the idea that this is what a person wants.
I wonder if perhaps this is strictly true in enough cases to make a choice to honor that valid.
By this I mean, I have found recently that a couple of the medicines I'm on can make me have suicidal thoughts, if I have certain vitamin deficiencies, also suicidal thoughts, and finally, just because I may have too much iron in my system, you guessed it, suicidal thoughts.
I don't feel that I'm suicidal, so maybe I got lucky...but I bet that if was feeling suicidal, I'd probably have a pretty good rationale worked up in my head as to why I was suicidal. I mean, if you look hard enough, there's a reason for anything and humans can rationalize like nobody's business.
This leads me then to think, OK, but say I went to a doctor and shared my troubles and they glanced through my chart and said, you know, why not knock off a couple of these medications for a month, and here's a b12 shot. Let's talk in a few weeks and see how you're feeling.
Perhaps a few weeks go by and my certainty lessens or my reasons don't seem to compel me as strongly to take action. Did the doctor ignore my wishes? No. Was something undesirable forced on me? Again, no. All the doctor did was take away some factors that could be unduly influencing me. So, in that instance, the doctor was probably right to question what I wanted and propose alternate ideas.
Now, having said all of that, I strongly prefer to err on the side of your body, your choice, but if we go about institutionalizing suicide, I sincerely hope there's a process that involves checking that we're all of sound mind and it's not just buying some "Plan D" over the counter or something like that.
posted by BeReasonable at 1:49 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
I wonder if perhaps this is strictly true in enough cases to make a choice to honor that valid.
By this I mean, I have found recently that a couple of the medicines I'm on can make me have suicidal thoughts, if I have certain vitamin deficiencies, also suicidal thoughts, and finally, just because I may have too much iron in my system, you guessed it, suicidal thoughts.
I don't feel that I'm suicidal, so maybe I got lucky...but I bet that if was feeling suicidal, I'd probably have a pretty good rationale worked up in my head as to why I was suicidal. I mean, if you look hard enough, there's a reason for anything and humans can rationalize like nobody's business.
This leads me then to think, OK, but say I went to a doctor and shared my troubles and they glanced through my chart and said, you know, why not knock off a couple of these medications for a month, and here's a b12 shot. Let's talk in a few weeks and see how you're feeling.
Perhaps a few weeks go by and my certainty lessens or my reasons don't seem to compel me as strongly to take action. Did the doctor ignore my wishes? No. Was something undesirable forced on me? Again, no. All the doctor did was take away some factors that could be unduly influencing me. So, in that instance, the doctor was probably right to question what I wanted and propose alternate ideas.
Now, having said all of that, I strongly prefer to err on the side of your body, your choice, but if we go about institutionalizing suicide, I sincerely hope there's a process that involves checking that we're all of sound mind and it's not just buying some "Plan D" over the counter or something like that.
posted by BeReasonable at 1:49 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
Looks like the subject emotionally abused her children and hurt those close to her for many years. I believe my feelings about a planned assisted suicide in other circumstances would be different to those in a culmination of this abuse and hurt.
posted by grouse at 1:52 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
posted by grouse at 1:52 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
I think there are a lot of valid point made here, but one thing I come back to is the idea that this is what a person wants. I wonder if perhaps this is strictly true in enough cases to make a choice to honor that valid.
On the other hand, how long are you willing to second guess someone before you let them die in peace?
And even if they do choose to die and they may have changed their mind later, what makes you believe that it's your business? People make short-sighted choices all the time. What makes it okay for you to interfere in this case?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:04 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
On the other hand, how long are you willing to second guess someone before you let them die in peace?
And even if they do choose to die and they may have changed their mind later, what makes you believe that it's your business? People make short-sighted choices all the time. What makes it okay for you to interfere in this case?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:04 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
it's not just buying some "Plan D"
That is black comedy gold right there. Would be perfectly placed in a dystopian SF comedy.
posted by notoriety public at 2:06 PM on May 9
That is black comedy gold right there. Would be perfectly placed in a dystopian SF comedy.
posted by notoriety public at 2:06 PM on May 9
I had a parent who attempted suicide multiple times. Never for one moment has it occurred to me to criticise that choice on the grounds that she was trying to selfishly abandon her parental responsibilities.
She had an untreatable mental illness that made her believe that she was a terrible parent, and that we'd be better off without her. Indeed, her behaviour while unwell was distressing and difficult enough that for periods of our childhood we were deliberately separated from her - sadly, we very literally were better off without her during those times and she was very conscious of that.
I don't find any of her behaviour shitty at all. I think she did the best she could with the absolutely rotten hand that she was dealt.
I don't think I ever saw her happier than when she got a terminal diagnosis that meant she finally didn't have to keep on going any more. I'm very glad she's at peace now, as she very rarely was in life.
And I'll not cast aspersions at anyone who makes similar choices, because none of us really knows what it's like to walk in their shoes.
posted by quacks like a duck at 2:12 PM on May 9 [20 favorites]
She had an untreatable mental illness that made her believe that she was a terrible parent, and that we'd be better off without her. Indeed, her behaviour while unwell was distressing and difficult enough that for periods of our childhood we were deliberately separated from her - sadly, we very literally were better off without her during those times and she was very conscious of that.
I don't find any of her behaviour shitty at all. I think she did the best she could with the absolutely rotten hand that she was dealt.
I don't think I ever saw her happier than when she got a terminal diagnosis that meant she finally didn't have to keep on going any more. I'm very glad she's at peace now, as she very rarely was in life.
And I'll not cast aspersions at anyone who makes similar choices, because none of us really knows what it's like to walk in their shoes.
posted by quacks like a duck at 2:12 PM on May 9 [20 favorites]
This is heartbreaking, and I hope that "Evelyn Jouvenet" gained some measure of peace by writing it. Her childhood sounds horrifying.
When I cleaned out my mother-in-law's house after her too-early death, I found her means to suicide near at hand, there just in case she needed it. She had insisted that full autonomy meant retaining this option. I can remember thinking "You were willing to leave us" and also "You always needed to know you had the right to determine your life" and "But you were willing to leave us." One more problem of adult autonomy. There was a possibility that we were not enough to keep her here, and I think about that a lot. Her drive for self-determination co-existed with her love for us, but the balance could have shifted.
I wish the author peace.
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:15 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]
When I cleaned out my mother-in-law's house after her too-early death, I found her means to suicide near at hand, there just in case she needed it. She had insisted that full autonomy meant retaining this option. I can remember thinking "You were willing to leave us" and also "You always needed to know you had the right to determine your life" and "But you were willing to leave us." One more problem of adult autonomy. There was a possibility that we were not enough to keep her here, and I think about that a lot. Her drive for self-determination co-existed with her love for us, but the balance could have shifted.
I wish the author peace.
posted by MonkeyToes at 2:15 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]
I can remember thinking "You were willing to leave us"
Yeah, both of my parents have (separately) told me directly that they've done everything that they want to do and they're ready to move along whenever. It was a horrible sort of coming of age (at 54) to realize that my parents had done everything they felt important with *me*.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:21 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
Yeah, both of my parents have (separately) told me directly that they've done everything that they want to do and they're ready to move along whenever. It was a horrible sort of coming of age (at 54) to realize that my parents had done everything they felt important with *me*.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 2:21 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
would that make me a selfish jerk because my brother and nephew will be sad?
“sadness” does not describe the experiences of the people i know who have had loved ones die by suicide. you can do whatever you want, and you won’t have to be around to watch it, but sometimes people’s lives are destroyed by the suicide of loved ones, and sometimes it puts them at greater risk for suicide themselves. it varies in every case, but the consequences for people you leave behind can be pretty fucking ghastly.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 2:33 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]
“sadness” does not describe the experiences of the people i know who have had loved ones die by suicide. you can do whatever you want, and you won’t have to be around to watch it, but sometimes people’s lives are destroyed by the suicide of loved ones, and sometimes it puts them at greater risk for suicide themselves. it varies in every case, but the consequences for people you leave behind can be pretty fucking ghastly.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 2:33 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]
She bought an apartment near her childhood home on Fifth Avenue;
One Sunday in late fall, my mother, my sister, and I were on our way back to the city from East Hampton ...
When I was in preschool and my parents were still married and living together on the Upper East Side, ...
Our summers spent as a trio on Long Island — jumping waves, catching crabs in the bay, eating dinner in the backyard before falling asleep in her bed, nut brown and worn out from the sun. ... The school year begins. As I sit by the pool in the evenings watching my children swim, ...
Maybe it's because I just looked at my bank account, but I'm having a really hard time getting past the upper class privilege.
posted by Melismata at 2:38 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]
One Sunday in late fall, my mother, my sister, and I were on our way back to the city from East Hampton ...
When I was in preschool and my parents were still married and living together on the Upper East Side, ...
Our summers spent as a trio on Long Island — jumping waves, catching crabs in the bay, eating dinner in the backyard before falling asleep in her bed, nut brown and worn out from the sun. ... The school year begins. As I sit by the pool in the evenings watching my children swim, ...
Maybe it's because I just looked at my bank account, but I'm having a really hard time getting past the upper class privilege.
posted by Melismata at 2:38 PM on May 9 [4 favorites]
Precisely how much suffering can a person be reasonably expected to endure for the sake of those who would be saddened, but not materially harmed, by their absence? Can it be quantified? Is there an upper limit?
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:39 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 2:39 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
No one has to endure anything. That doesn’t mean you get to, or can, calibrate the consequences for other people.
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 2:41 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
posted by knock my sock and i'll clean your clock at 2:41 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
Should I, instead, continue to live a life I don't want, that brings me nothing, for no purpose of my own, but rather to postpone their grief over my death until... whenever that would happen later?
One important point here is that when people feel that way, there are, you know, other options to try -- its not "live a joyless life" or "die". That feeling of joylessness can often be a symptom of something that can be treated, and the joy can sometimes be brought back.
What stands out to me most about this story in particular is that the mother never seems to consider any other options. I would hope that someone who genuinely cared about their family and friends might consider therapy, meds, vitamin shots, something else, before they went straight to the Switzerland option.
This is not a story about someone who tried anything else first. This is not a story about someone with no other options. Its framed as a story about assisted suicide, but what actually feels more true to me is that its just the mother's way to demand love and obedience from her daughters one last time - to hold that power over them - before ending her life in a moment of maximum drama.
Its the ultimate narcissistic fantasy - "they will lie next to me in the bed as I die, telling me how much they love me, and then they will weep for me."
posted by anastasiav at 2:41 PM on May 9 [10 favorites]
One important point here is that when people feel that way, there are, you know, other options to try -- its not "live a joyless life" or "die". That feeling of joylessness can often be a symptom of something that can be treated, and the joy can sometimes be brought back.
What stands out to me most about this story in particular is that the mother never seems to consider any other options. I would hope that someone who genuinely cared about their family and friends might consider therapy, meds, vitamin shots, something else, before they went straight to the Switzerland option.
This is not a story about someone who tried anything else first. This is not a story about someone with no other options. Its framed as a story about assisted suicide, but what actually feels more true to me is that its just the mother's way to demand love and obedience from her daughters one last time - to hold that power over them - before ending her life in a moment of maximum drama.
Its the ultimate narcissistic fantasy - "they will lie next to me in the bed as I die, telling me how much they love me, and then they will weep for me."
posted by anastasiav at 2:41 PM on May 9 [10 favorites]
God this essay hit so close to home. It really captured the intensity and love and dysfunction of the mother-daughter relationship when the mother has BPD. The way abandonment is waved in front of your face as punishment for minor transgressions or mistakes, the way good and downright terrible memories compete when you think about your childhood. All the games that your mother played even through adulthood to get you to feel like you're antagonizing her when she is, in fact, doing it to you.
My mom died from cancer years ago. The regret and relief I felt when she passed is something I'll never forget. Life is peaceful afterwards, and the good memories are still there. I hope the author finds this to be true too.
posted by extramundane at 2:50 PM on May 9 [6 favorites]
My mom died from cancer years ago. The regret and relief I felt when she passed is something I'll never forget. Life is peaceful afterwards, and the good memories are still there. I hope the author finds this to be true too.
posted by extramundane at 2:50 PM on May 9 [6 favorites]
Reminds me a bit of "Igby Goes Down," not only for its framing in a lifestyle few of us can imagine. Us poor folks kill ourselves the same way John Lennon would say we were born, into the same saturday night a bottle we were born out of. I don't mean to seem callous, but I am.
My favorite 'resident' at the dementia home I worked for was this poor fellow who retained the ability (curse?) to know how incapacitated and isolated he was. He intermittently hated himself, his nurses, his incapacity, the fact that he knew he would die in the bed he spoke to me from. That is, he would call his nurses terrible names when they force fed him or let him sit in his filth for the better part of a day, but then call them saints the next day, knowing that he was not easy to work with and they were doing their best.
I was maintenance. The best thing I could do was help him work the cell phones which his (also aging) family kept setting up for him, as he could only sometimes work the buttons or remember where the numbers were. I had other patients like him afterwards, but he was the one who forced me to make this decision:
When he told me (again and again): "I just don't want to do this anymore," I didn't lie to him. I told him that the state of his life was objectively rough. That getting up and going outside his room or even to the grounds would make him feel a bit better. That I'd always do my best to connect him with his family and friends, to try and find time to stop by and talk and check in. He taught me how to best use my spare time in that place, by making things a bit more comfortable for the other folks there. I moved on from that job for a host of reasons, but he was emblematic of a cluster thereof. He's probably still alive. I wish he was treated better, or allowed to leave with his dignity.
posted by es_de_bah at 2:50 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
My favorite 'resident' at the dementia home I worked for was this poor fellow who retained the ability (curse?) to know how incapacitated and isolated he was. He intermittently hated himself, his nurses, his incapacity, the fact that he knew he would die in the bed he spoke to me from. That is, he would call his nurses terrible names when they force fed him or let him sit in his filth for the better part of a day, but then call them saints the next day, knowing that he was not easy to work with and they were doing their best.
I was maintenance. The best thing I could do was help him work the cell phones which his (also aging) family kept setting up for him, as he could only sometimes work the buttons or remember where the numbers were. I had other patients like him afterwards, but he was the one who forced me to make this decision:
When he told me (again and again): "I just don't want to do this anymore," I didn't lie to him. I told him that the state of his life was objectively rough. That getting up and going outside his room or even to the grounds would make him feel a bit better. That I'd always do my best to connect him with his family and friends, to try and find time to stop by and talk and check in. He taught me how to best use my spare time in that place, by making things a bit more comfortable for the other folks there. I moved on from that job for a host of reasons, but he was emblematic of a cluster thereof. He's probably still alive. I wish he was treated better, or allowed to leave with his dignity.
posted by es_de_bah at 2:50 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
I have posted this article before, and it fits here. How Not To Commit Suicide by art Kleiner, originally published in CoEvolution Quarterly.
Wanting to die is generally indicative of depression. I am not many years younger, and when I idly wonder if I'm done, it makes me assess my mental health and take action. Nobody has to stay alive for others, but mental illness is a genuine and often treatable thing, and we should make it possible.
posted by theora55 at 3:25 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
Wanting to die is generally indicative of depression. I am not many years younger, and when I idly wonder if I'm done, it makes me assess my mental health and take action. Nobody has to stay alive for others, but mental illness is a genuine and often treatable thing, and we should make it possible.
posted by theora55 at 3:25 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
My mom failed to parent in some ways that turned out not to be catastrophic only by chance, and even now I don't think she understands me, but I know she loves me, and this essay is a good opportunity to remember to be grateful for that.
I imagine that the mother here would've been better off in a world where the default expectation was not that she should have kids. (I would not have been like her, but I think that at difficult times I might have potentially been perceived by my theoretical kids as somewhat cold or withholding.) But I suppose that if she had BPD (some of the pieces don't quite seem to fit, and anyway a third-person memoir is not a great basis for diagnosis) she might have decided to have some kids to use as emotional punching-bags anyway.
Maybe it's because I just looked at my bank account, but I'm having a really hard time getting past the upper class privilege.
Wow. Guess the author's mom isn't going to have the monopoly on cruelty here.
posted by praemunire at 3:45 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
I imagine that the mother here would've been better off in a world where the default expectation was not that she should have kids. (I would not have been like her, but I think that at difficult times I might have potentially been perceived by my theoretical kids as somewhat cold or withholding.) But I suppose that if she had BPD (some of the pieces don't quite seem to fit, and anyway a third-person memoir is not a great basis for diagnosis) she might have decided to have some kids to use as emotional punching-bags anyway.
Maybe it's because I just looked at my bank account, but I'm having a really hard time getting past the upper class privilege.
Wow. Guess the author's mom isn't going to have the monopoly on cruelty here.
posted by praemunire at 3:45 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
knock my sock and i'll clean your clock: sometimes people’s lives are destroyed by the suicide of loved ones, and sometimes it puts them at greater risk for suicide themselves.
This is true. The problem is there are so many different ways the conversation could go from here so it's difficult to have just one response (e.g. what if they're terminally ill/in constant, agonizing pain/living with treatment-resistant depression that torments them/trapped in a soul-deadening existence that has no hope of improvement but will certainly get worse/just fucking tired of it all and don't want to continue/etc.), but for me it still comes down to: why is someone's desire to stop existing, for any of those reasons or more, less important than the effect it will have on other people?
theora55: Wanting to die is generally indicative of depression.
I would argue that "generally" is an easy way to avoid talking about how there may be many other causes of suicidality, but we don't consider them because we as a species seem to be ill-equipped to talk about suicide dispassionately. It's easy to say a suicidal person must be experiencing depression (or some other mental illness) because that's always been the answer, but I think most people don't want to consider that there might be reasons unrelated to illness, mental or otherwise, for wanting to stop living. And I think this is part of what I'm trying to say in the first paragraph, and why it's so hard to talk about, because so much suicide does come about from mental illness so that is the main experience of it that people have -- but like anything that has been taboo to discuss, once we start discussing it, I'll bet we find many, many more people who are not clinically depressed who have seriously considered killing themselves because they're finished, but their body forces them to keep going -- and it isn't that they haven't considered the other people in their lives.
posted by tzikeh at 4:14 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
This is true. The problem is there are so many different ways the conversation could go from here so it's difficult to have just one response (e.g. what if they're terminally ill/in constant, agonizing pain/living with treatment-resistant depression that torments them/trapped in a soul-deadening existence that has no hope of improvement but will certainly get worse/just fucking tired of it all and don't want to continue/etc.), but for me it still comes down to: why is someone's desire to stop existing, for any of those reasons or more, less important than the effect it will have on other people?
theora55: Wanting to die is generally indicative of depression.
I would argue that "generally" is an easy way to avoid talking about how there may be many other causes of suicidality, but we don't consider them because we as a species seem to be ill-equipped to talk about suicide dispassionately. It's easy to say a suicidal person must be experiencing depression (or some other mental illness) because that's always been the answer, but I think most people don't want to consider that there might be reasons unrelated to illness, mental or otherwise, for wanting to stop living. And I think this is part of what I'm trying to say in the first paragraph, and why it's so hard to talk about, because so much suicide does come about from mental illness so that is the main experience of it that people have -- but like anything that has been taboo to discuss, once we start discussing it, I'll bet we find many, many more people who are not clinically depressed who have seriously considered killing themselves because they're finished, but their body forces them to keep going -- and it isn't that they haven't considered the other people in their lives.
posted by tzikeh at 4:14 PM on May 9 [5 favorites]
tzikeh, I have experienced clinical depression for much of my life. Suicidal ideation will come out of the blue, and it means I need to check my meds. Yes, there are many reasons to not want to live, but we are hardwired to survive. If people are depressed because the economy is predatory, or because they're being bullied, or they can't afford care for their illness, those are good, also solvable, reasons. Humans are social mammals, and connections with others are critical. I defend the right to controlling one's life, but I do believe it's a form ol illness most of the time.
I'm very concerned that old people will be pressured to stop living because they are seen as an economic burden. We should have the right to autonomy, but not the pressure to end our lives.
posted by theora55 at 5:04 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
I'm very concerned that old people will be pressured to stop living because they are seen as an economic burden. We should have the right to autonomy, but not the pressure to end our lives.
posted by theora55 at 5:04 PM on May 9 [3 favorites]
If people are depressed because the economy is predatory, or because they're being bullied, or they can't afford care for their illness
I don't think it's a sign of mental illness to be ground down by relentless discomfort (if you're indulging in the illusion that all medically-related suffering can be addressed by treatment, time to let that one go), a constant diminishment of one's capacity that robs one of the ability to do things one enjoys, and the steady erosion of one's social world through the loss of long-standing relationships, all of which are common concomitants of old age. To act like these can simply be addressed by more resources for everyone is to indulge in that strange irrational leftist counter-optimism that's founded on the idea that all problems are already solved and what's lacking is money and will.
we are hardwired to survive
This is a fiction that seems to have arisen from a bizarre misunderstanding of Darwinism, but, even if it were...so what?
posted by praemunire at 5:24 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
I don't think it's a sign of mental illness to be ground down by relentless discomfort (if you're indulging in the illusion that all medically-related suffering can be addressed by treatment, time to let that one go), a constant diminishment of one's capacity that robs one of the ability to do things one enjoys, and the steady erosion of one's social world through the loss of long-standing relationships, all of which are common concomitants of old age. To act like these can simply be addressed by more resources for everyone is to indulge in that strange irrational leftist counter-optimism that's founded on the idea that all problems are already solved and what's lacking is money and will.
we are hardwired to survive
This is a fiction that seems to have arisen from a bizarre misunderstanding of Darwinism, but, even if it were...so what?
posted by praemunire at 5:24 PM on May 9 [2 favorites]
but we are hardwired to survive
Actually we’re hardwired to die. Happens to everyone.
And before that we are hardwired to assist in passing along the family genes, whether directly or as part of a support system. And quite a few people have sacrificed their own lives to do that over the years.
So no, we are not hardwired to survive.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:35 PM on May 9
Actually we’re hardwired to die. Happens to everyone.
And before that we are hardwired to assist in passing along the family genes, whether directly or as part of a support system. And quite a few people have sacrificed their own lives to do that over the years.
So no, we are not hardwired to survive.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:35 PM on May 9
This hits too close to home for me to really comment on.
I just hope that if I have to make this decision, I can. Going to keep fighting, but, sometimes, you don't win...
Though I survived 3 days in the ICU and 3 more weeks in the hospital. So I've got that going for me...
I'm a fraidy-cat though. Can't imagine ending it. My dogs would be sad.
posted by Windopaene at 5:39 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
I just hope that if I have to make this decision, I can. Going to keep fighting, but, sometimes, you don't win...
Though I survived 3 days in the ICU and 3 more weeks in the hospital. So I've got that going for me...
I'm a fraidy-cat though. Can't imagine ending it. My dogs would be sad.
posted by Windopaene at 5:39 PM on May 9 [1 favorite]
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posted by feckless at 11:56 AM on May 9 [2 favorites]